UI and ?wrongful termination?

[jobeth]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? georgia

howdy! i really need some help/advice/suggestions on how to approach my upcoming unemployment appeal on monday (the 25th) and opinions on whether or not to file a wrongful termination lawsuit. to sum up a long story, i refused (respectfully) to administer state supplied vaccinations to privately insured pediatriac patients. approx. 2 weeks later, i was pulled to the front office acting as a file clerk when my education, certification, job desc., etc. was as a back office nurse. shortly thereafter, i was called into a mtg. with the practice owner. i was told we needed to re-evaluate my carrer with them and we would touch base over the weekend (mtg. was on a wed.). i received an email stating i was terminated 2 days later (that friday). no reason was given. i applied for unemployment and it was denied. the lady wouldn't let me speak. she phoned to let me know i had been fired for "misconduct". i appealed and my hearing is coming up on monday. done alot of research on-line, but want to make sure all my bases are covered. i was NEVER written up, counseled, warned, have patient complaints- on the contrary- patients requested me specifically by name. any suggestions? do i have a lawsuit? what all should i bring to the hearing? thanx so much for ANY input you can give!!

 

[commentator]

Okay, first of all, forget about 'wrongful terminations' and filing suits. there is nobody to file a suit against, no such case of wrongful termination here that I can see. An employer has the right to terminate you for any reason at any time. Getting your unemployment approved is about the only recourse you have, unless you can prove that you were terminated due to a reason covered by EEOC guidelines, such as race, gender, yada yada.....

it will not impress the unemployment commission if you attempt to tell them you are filing a 'wrongful termination' lawsuit. they know all these laws. You have been denied on first appeal. you were not allowed to speak because you were allowed to tell your story when you filed the claim, giving the reason for your termination from your side at this point. An initial decision was made, denying benefits. A hearing was set up. I am assuming this is a hearing, not just a fact finding hearing before the initial decision. Have you actually received a letter stating that your benefits were denied? Assuming this,......

When the hearing comes, you will be allowed to speak first, presenting your case. Try to be very succinct. Okay, you were called in and told you were being terminated for.....what? What exactly did the employer tell you the day you were terminated? What was the situation that led up to this? If you had a problem with giving the state vaccines to privately insured patients you're going to have to explain why you felt this was wrong, to some extent. It's certainly not clear to me, just on first reading. You need to make the hearing officer understand.

You say you "respectfully declined.' I assume this means you talked with your employer, and told them why you thought this was the wrong thing to do. you did not cry, curse, make a scene or storm out. If you had discussed this matter with them before, that would be relevant to bring up. A while after this, they relocated you to a reception front office position. What did they say was the reason why they did this? Then they called you in and said they were going to or that you needed to re-evaluate your position with them, that you were sent home and told you would be contacted. Be sure and emphasize that at no point were you offered a chance to change your behavior, or do something to try to keep your job. Emphasize that you did not want to lose your job. The question is, "What did I do to try to work this situation out? Was I given any opportunity to salvage the position?" "Did I receive any warnings, was I given any opportunity to change my behavior?"

In the absence of "progressive discipline" with warnings, etc, the employer must prove that your behavior was gross misconduct, which is defined as something so bad that you would have known it was unacceptable even if you only did it one time, or behavior that was specifically listed in the company handbook as grounds for termination.

After you speak, the employer will be allowed to speak, and they will present their side of the story. Afterward, you will be allowed to question them, and they you, and the appeal hearing officer will ask any questions. This is a formal process, it is recorded, all parties will be sworn in, and you will not be allowed to break into their testimony and vice versa.

Be very polite, professional, and well organized. It is assumed that the misconduct they are accusing you of is insubordination, refusing to do something that your employer had told you to do. You will strengthen your case if you can come up with a good argument why you did not want to do this (whatever it was they asked you to do that you refused) and that you tried to resolve the problem in a professional and diplomatic way with your employer.

keep certifying for weeks of benefits. If you win this hearing, you will be back paid for any weeks you have filed for. If you do not win the hearing, there is one more appeal, the board of review. but this does not require a personal appearance by either party.

 

[jobeth]

woops- it cut me off. anyhow, i received an email attachment in place of a separation notice that said "to whom it may concern, jody $%^$'s termination with @#$@% is effective 11-20-09". i didn't find out the reason he gave until i received my paperwork from the appeal hearing people and incidently, the reason on his statement was not the reason on the state's statement. thank you again!!!!

 

[jobeth]

for some reason, it erased the 1st part of my reply, but i didn't tell anyone i was going to file a suit and wouldn't say anything at the hearing. someone had mentioned it and since he has "black-balled" me in the industry in the close area, i was just wanting to get info about it in case i needed/wanted to do it down the road. i refused to give the vaccine because it constituted insurance fraud and mis-appropriation of government supplies. there are 2 types of vaccines. 1 is supplied by the state and the physician charges a $14.81 administration fee. it is for medicaid patients, private pay, under-insured, etc. the other vaccine is purchased by the physician and subsequently billed to the insurance company, plus they pay their co-pay as well as an administration. basically, he was telling me to use the vaccine the state sends for "needy" children and give it to insurance patients if they were willing to pay their co-pay and an administration fee and then, on top of that, he billed the insurance company as usual. i was the only medically licensed person in the office and did not want to risk loosing my license i pay money to keep active every year. i was never- under any circumstances- counciled, disciplined, written up, etc. on the contrary, i was complimented on my work ethic, organizational skills, etc. i was told i was moved up front so they could train the front girl to "float" to the back if me or the other back office person were out and that the front was behind on filing so i needed to help them. i was told to wash the office outside windows and did it. i was told to move 23 50-lb boxes of old patient charts to the crawl space under the office and i did it. i did everything i was ever told to do and then some. i did not have a bad attitude. i did get way less social though. i was invited to a company lunch and chose not to attend and didn't hang out as much as i had with the other girls. i just got quieter. they all called it me getting put in "time out". i have been asked a zillion times what the exact reason was that i was given and God as my witness, i never got one. when we were talking, he asked what was wrong with me that i had become "distant" and "quiet" and i told him i was a bit frustrated with the way things were going there. he said he had received 3 phone calls from other employees stating i made them feel "uncomfortable". i asked several times what he wanted me to do, what they said, if i could rectify the problem, etc. and he never gave me an answer. i asked him several times if i was fired and he said no. i did get a denial of benefits paper and when i filed the appeal, i received his statement. he stated i was terminated for "being disrespectful" to other office workers. heck- i had charts thrown at me up the hallway in front of patients- i should have been the one to claim disrespect! (-; incidently, the reason on the state's statement was not the same as on his statement. i have NEVER- NEVER- NEVER been counciled, disciplined, have complaints about, etc. and, in fact, declined 3 positions in the 2 months prior to this (all 3 offers were retracted after they phoned him for a reference) which i never would have declined- especially during the holidays- if i had ANY clue my job was in jeopardy. i honestly appreciate all the help, suggestions and info. i've never been though anything like this. it's frustrating!! i have been claiming my benefits since november 20th, thus, haven't had ANY income and am about frustrated enough to say the heck with it. seems he would have to produce statements or some sort of documentation as to his allegations, but the state said he doesn't because the burden of proof is mine. it's basically my word against his because none of the people i work with would risk their job by getting involved. help and thanks!!!

 

[commentator]

So go into your hearing, polite, professional, and to the point. Leave out about two thirds of the stuff about how you had charts thrown at you in the hallways, etc. Be very much to the point. On the matter of billing, vaccines, etc. Be very clear about why you felt this was unethical, but be very clear about having discussed this with your employer. You may state that you felt this was a large factor in your termination.

DO NOT... I repeat, do not fall into being defensive about how the first person you talked to in unemployment failed to listen to you..how they have said this or that, do not get into fighting with the unemployment system. They are not biased toward the employer. This will be a totally different person reading what the initial decision says the same as you are. Your job is to convince him/her that the law was not followed in your termination, that they did not have a good misconduct reason to terminate your employment.

If you come off as "a little bit nutty with an attitude", fighting everyone and everything, that will hurt your case. There is not much that will carry over from the first decision, except whatever the reason was determined to be. If it was "misconduct" then you prove you had no warnings, it was not misconduct with warnings.

There's no reason to give up now, especially after you have a hearing date. Win your hearing. From what I'm seeing, this guy was upset with you, wanted to get rid of you, but had no real misconduct reason to do so. Therefore, you stand in good stead to win this if you handle it well. They shouldn't have any proofs that you behaved in an irrational way that could be interpreted as misconduct, do they?

 

[pattytx]

OP, in the future, I'm sure Commentator (and anyone else inclined to respond) would appreciate some paragraphs and white space in your posts. That huge block o' text is very hard to read.

 

[jobeth]

hey there! sorry about the "white space" issue... good to know and i'll take heed in the future.. well.... hopefully there won't be a future! (no offense!)

anyhow, thank you so very much for your help and input!! i've never been through anything like this before and it can be rather frustrating and overwhelming. i honestly appreciate all the comments, suggestions, advice, etc. wonderful resource!!

anyhow, i have copies of everything- paperwork, examples of my work, compliment letters from patients (but was told they could not be accepted even if notarized), and made notes on the only info i have from him, sent to me by the state. i also have my "defense" proof.

all of the above information, i have put into a notebook in clear pages so they will be organized and it'll be easy to find any info requested. is that ok, or will i look a tad TOO ocd?

to my knowledge, there is absolutely NO documentation that i ever did anything wrong. i really think my termination was a combination of me costing him alot of money (over and incorrect billing), he had to pay me more than the girl who took my place (she had/has NO medical education or training) and she goes to church with 2 of the physicians and several of the other staff and they just plain liked her more. sounds petty and stupid, but i really can't think of anything else.

ok- so i'll be blunt, honest and take and follow your advice completely. i won't volunteer anything. how in depth should i be if they do ask something? just answer the question directly? elaborate?

thanx again so much for your help and time!! GREATLY appreciated!!! (-;

 

[pattytx]

Ah, MUCH better.

 

[jobeth]

aahhh... young grasshoppa can learn!! (-;

got a couple more questions i just thought of. (senior moments lately)

if the hearing goes my way and i am approved for benefits, how long afterward until i receive a check? also, in the above circumstance, do i receive benefits even if he appeals, or do i have to wait the 15 days for another hearing and then wait on the results of that?

thanx again for all the help!! you guys rock!! have a groovy nite!

 

[commentator]

Yes, little grasshoppa! Take a lesson here, too. If we don't like to wade through sentence after sentence looking for the one relevant fact, the hearing officer won't either! In fact, deluges of glossy pages will do nothing but piss him/her off, as these ALL, if presented as evidence, have to be entered and kept with the case materials for years. While we appreciate people who come in and are well organized, we quickly can see the difference between this and OCD over-detailers.

Very right. We do not want testimonials from patients. As far as I can see, this case is not because you were terminated for performance issues. If it were, you need to say, "I did the job to the best of my ability." That's all. You do not have to argue, argue, argue that you were doing a good job,everyone said you were...yada yada yada.

If there was no misconduct, very briefly, touch on this. Make up a speech to give, stating your case, practice it in front of someone and let them be critical. They should be alert to whether you are going into too much detail. (Also referred to as "running off down rabbit trails.") Stay on task, present the relevant facts. DO NOT carry a bunch of paperwork in there, such as a copy of your speech, or a letter,etc. This may be taken, and you not allowed to speak. In fact, I'd not carry a whole lot of paper in with me at all. In fact, they have the separation notice that they showed you already, while it would be appropriate for you to mention it. "When I actually saw the sep. notice they'd refused to give to me, I was surprised to see that it said....."

If you have continued to certify, and the decision goes in your favor at this hearing, you will be receiving your backpay for the weeks you have certified shortly after the decision is made. Say within a week or so. Then you will continue to receive weeks of benefits as you certify for them. If the appeal is made by the employer to the board of review and the previous hearing decision were overturned, your benefits would be stopped, and you would be determined to have been overpaid for all the monies you had received.

Good luck, keep us updated on how this goes.

 

[jobeth]

thank you so very much!! i will take your advice and leave the notes at home or in the car and do the speech. you know way more than i do and i value your opinion and appreciate all your help!

i'll let you know how it goes. hearing is monday morning at 9:15am.

i'll be sure to let you know and keep you posted! again, i really appreciate all your help and guidance! (-;

 

[jobeth]

hi all- quick update... my hearing was this morning. i was there 15" early. the hearing officer called me back and then called the office i worked for several times. she said that they had replied "their representative would attend". she asked me to wait 10 more minutes and re-called both parties. the representative(s) never showed. the officer recorded everything she and i said and asked questions and i replied. i kept everything short, sweet and to the point as the advice i received on here suggested. i gave my closing statement and she said i should know something in the next day or 2. the meeting/hearing ended at 9:38 am so i was there about 40" start to finish, even with the delay waiting for them.

when i receive the final result, i'll post it. just wanted to let everyone who gave me some advice and suggestions to know how it went and i'll keep you posted. i followed your advice and suggestions and appreciate all the input and information no matter what the outcome.

thanx again all!

 

[commentator]

Sounds great for the home team! Let us know. If you were to lose this one, you could, of course have one more appeal, to the board of review. But in the meantime, keep certifying, keep looking for other jobs, and don't carry grudges about your former employer. It sounds as though this job was something you needed to get away from anyhow, there's something better out there for you!