At Will Termination(by employer): Possible UI Entitlement?

[Sequoio]

- MICHIGAN

I was fired from my job by an assistant manager. The only reason given was that "I was told to tell you that tonight is your last night" and "Michigan is an “at will” state, that is the only explanation I am aloud to give you." When I came back to work to talk to the general manager about it he stated the same thing, and that it's only the second time this type of termination has been green-lit in this particular unit. I heard through the grapevine that someone I formerly worked with accused me of something that did not happen. It was stated by my co-worker (non-manager) that the accusation was the reason I was terminated. The accusation is of a sort of illegal activity that did not occur in the workplace. It occurred indirectly after a work event.

It would appear to me, if my former place of employment were to deny unemployment benefits, they would have to prove (burden of proof being on the employer) that such illegal activity took place. Seeing as it has been a month since the alleged wrongdoing and I am not in jail I would think proving I should be rightfully denied benefits would be impossible. By the way I have been checking quite meticulously for warrants for my arrest in and in surrounding areas

I have seen, in many forums on the internet, that "at will" termination will sometimes occur in a certain fashion; i.e. a person is fired for no reason and then the former employer claims misconduct...the worker is denied benefits. I have not been denied my claim as of yet. It is still processing.

BTW: No warnings or write-ups at this job. No performance evaluation that would denote misconduct.

Questions:
1. Is it likely my claim will be disputed?
2. If so, how likely is it that I will be given a reason for the termination in the unemployment process?
3. Does lack of legal action taken upon me affirm the fallacy of accusations (no criminal implication/no rational objection to benefits)?
4. Should I expect legal action now that I've filed a claim? (Is it likely that the employer will allocate resources to assuring the corroboration of these accusations?)
5. If a person's verbal testimony were the only initiating factor in this event would that person's testimony hold water if they don't go to the police (with the accusation)?

 

[swalsh411]

You're way over thinking it by several orders of magnitude.

It's good you filed right away as opposed to listening to incorrect advice you heard online. If it comes up, say you did your job as best you could, were told you were terminated, but not given any other information.

Your employer doesn't decide if you get benefits or not, the State does. They can appeal, but the burden of proof is on them to show misconduct. An unproven allegation of criminal conduct outside of the workplace is not going to be nearly good enough to deny you.

 

[commentator]

- MICHIGAN


I have seen, in many forums on the internet, that "at will" termination will sometimes occur in a certain fashion; i.e. a person is fired for no reason and then the former employer claims misconduct...the worker is denied benefits. I have not been denied my claim as of yet. It is still processing.

BTW: No warnings or write-ups at this job. No performance evaluation that would denote misconduct.

Questions:
1. Is it likely my claim will be disputed?
2. If so, how likely is it that I will be given a reason for the termination in the unemployment process?
3. Does lack of legal action taken upon me affirm the fallacy of accusations (no criminal implication/no rational objection to benefits)?
4. Should I expect legal action now that I've filed a claim? (Is it likely that the employer will allocate resources to assuring the corroboration of these accusations?)
5. If a person's verbal testimony were the only initiating factor in this event would that person's testimony hold water if they don't go to the police (with the accusation)?

Thank heavens you did go on and file. But you say you haven't heard, and it's been how long???Hopefully you are making your weekly certifications for weeks as they pass so you could be back paid for them if the claim is approved. If you have not been doing this, contact them again immediately, re open your claim and start doing those weekly certs while waiting for a decision.

What you are waiting for is an "initial decision." This is the first one. You are supposed to receive it within two or three weeks of filing the claim. It either approves you to draw benefits, or denies your benefits for such and such reason. Either party, either you or the employer, who did not like this first decision would be able to file an appeal, within 15 days, and ask that the matter be re-examined. This next step is an administrative hearing, where both parties are present, or both on the telephone, and evidence is taken and the issue that resulted in your firing is re-examined.

Since you received no progressive discipline, the employer, in order to keep you from receiving benefits, must show they had a "gross misconduct" reason to terminate. Termination was totally legal, it's just all about whether or not they can keep you from receiving unemployment insurance at this point. They could terminate you for anything, anytime, without a good reason.

They may also opt not to answer the employment office's inquiries, in other words let you go on and draw benefits, without telling them why you were fired or fighting the unemployment cases. Sometimes they do that, when they don't really want to go into the reasons, but wanted rid of you anyhow. There's nothing you can do in this case but shut up and draw your benefits. They don't have to explain why they fired you, only if they want to keep you from drawing benefits.

But gross misconduct means you did something so egregious that it was wrong to do it even one time, and you knew this as any reasonable person would have. If you dragged your co-worker into a bathroom and raped her, that's gross misconduct. If you walked up and punched your supervisor in the face, that's gross misconduct. If you set the building on fire, that's gross misconduct. No warnings or prior write ups required to say they had a good cause to fire you. No unemployment benefits, even if they did not press civil charges against you. These two things, unemployment benefits and whether they pressed charges are unrelated, except that if they did call the police and have you arrested immediately, that sure makes their story more believable,doesn't it?

If you (or she says that you)grabbed her inappropriately and said something real ugly to her, that might be called gross misconduct if they have pretty good proof you actually did it. Like witnesses. An immediate complaint to the supervisor. Blue marks on her body put there by you.

They understand that a person can lie about another person's actions, especially when there are no witnesses. But they'll listen to what you say happened, or didn't happen, and what they say did or didn't happen. there is no assumption that either party is has more credibility or is going to be more truthful. That decision is made by the hearing officer.

Each party with testimony is put under oath before the testimony, though they could, presumably pay or command someone to lie. So could you. That's sometimes the case. It's all hinged on the judgment of the hearing officer as to the truthfulness of the witnesses, the validity of the evidence. And no, you cannot sue people for slander if they lie in an unmemployment hearing. Wouldn't be worth your time anyhow.

So now you're waiting to hear. When you get your decision letter, you'll know more. Call and find out what is going on with your claim if you do not hear soon, one way or another.

 

[Sequoio]

Time

It has been sixteen days since my initial claim (2 days after being let go). I was unclear how the process worked so the first week I actually certified for was 02/02-02/09. Two days after filing my claim I received my "Monetary Determination". Part of me knew that was too quick to actually find out how much I would be receiving but I made a poor assumption that I was just waiting for money to come.

To get some clarity on things I sat in line for four hours at the closest UI office to find two things. (1) That I hadn't certified when I thought I had (easily remedied – certified for that week (02/02-02/09) when I left the office) and (2) that the employer had not yet completed their end of the process. I wasn't clear on whether that meant the employer was disputing or if they just hadn't filed whatever papers they needed for the process to reach the next step. The UI worker told me that a decision (“initial decision?”) could take from three to six weeks.

Note: I wouldn't look forward to suing anyone for slander. I’ve wanted to get out of this job for some time but it has just been easier to stick around and make what money I could. The criminal implications are what worry me. This is unjust but I know a good exit when I see one. I just want to stop being paranoid.

New Questions:

1. Is there a window of time (in Michigan) that will elapse and nullify an employer’s right to disputer my claim? Appeal the claim? When the “three to six weeks” have passed and no action has been taken should I view that as unusual or can I see it as a good sign?

 

[swalsh411]

There are no criminal implications in filing for unemployment as long as you provide truthful information and do not attempt fraud.

Continue to make your certifications while you look for a new job. Do not stop making certifications because you think the employer may be disputing it. Don't worry about what the employer may be doing or thinking. The system is designed so the process moves forward whether or not the former employer responds.

Again, stop over-analzying it. File the certifications while you look for a new job.

 

[commentator]

Agree, you sound like one of those overthinkers. Glad you got your claim reopened, that means if you are approved, you'll be back paid for each week you've certified for (Unless your state has a "waiting week," I sort of remember MI didn't used to ) You always get the monetary determination when you file a claim. It means they checked, and you did have enough wages in the past 18 months from covered employers to set up a claim, you are monetarily eligible and entitled, if approved, to draw this much unemployment from this claim.

However, the initial decision can take several weeks. But yes, if there has been no response from the employer within a certain time period, the ajudicator will go on and make a decision on the claim without their feedback. As we said, the employer does not get to say whether or not you are able to draw benefits. If they could cause you to be denied by simply not responding to requests for separation information, they'd never respond, would they? When you draw benefits, it costs the employer money. They don't pay them directly, but they have to pay unemployment taxes which will be increased when people draw benefits from them.

As I said, sometimes employers just choose not to respond, and let you go on and draw unemployment benefits without contesting the claim. Usually there is a very stringent time limitation on when the unemployment system has to get back with you and tell you whether the claim is approved or not, but in this recent recession, wait times have tremendously increased due to the volume of claims they are processing. This increased wait time is being overlooked by the federal government because of the situation.

However, do not sit there and let this go on for more than another week. If you haven't heard by then, check back with them. Claims do get lost in the system sometimes. I am always amazed to run up on people who just never heard another word, and quietly assumed they'd been denied. It isn't supposed to work that way. Meantime, continue to make your certifications, do your job searching activities, and don't worry about it. There's nothing you can do. If there were going to be any "criminal implications" it appears to me they'd have pretty much had to do that some time ago.

Unemployment, as I said, isn't related to criminal charges, your filing a claim does not lead to a criminal investigation of any type, and the employer would look pretty silly if they called the police and tried to file a report on something that happened several weeks ago because you filed for unemployment benefits.