Do I have any rights as a Contractor?

[barbie613]

What is the name of your state? CA

I've been contracting for a large company for 10 months. A contractor in the same role who was hired four months after me was recently converted to permanent. My manager, the department, nor the contractor told me this was going to happen. I learned she'd gone to a major conference at a team meeting and wondered why she'd gone. The next day, another contractor left me a note, telling me she thought I should know.

My manager and my manager's manager both know that I am seeking permanent employment. My colleagues and other managers have sent positive feedback to my manager that I've been able to use in my portfolio referencing my "quick action", "level of detail", "amazing work", "fast response time", and "diligence". Perhaps most ironic, however, is an email forwarded to me from my manager from the contractor who was hired permanently, praising me for being "a wonderful training resource and supportive go-to person" when she was first hired in.

My situation has progressively grown more difficult at this company. First, I was given piecemeal work, then I was put on the two most difficult segments known to our department (difficult because they have track records for not adhering to typical processes or going through appropriate channels), and assigned projects with the most difficult managers (which causes churn, a lot of explanations and even defense of my position to the "old schoolers").

The next phase was overbooking me so that I'm so jammed that I'm late to meetings and have to schmooze planning managers for deadline extensions. (Whenever I push back on my manager, she deals with that one project then, the following week, she sends me another one, even though my workload hasn't changed.)

After working with one of the most notoriously difficult principal managers, he came out singing my praises and actually asked what he had to do to secure me as an ongoing resource. I told him it would help if they hired me full-time since my contract was coming up on a year in August. He began evangelizing me the same day.

The next day, I was told that the newly permanent person was being given a large project so I would need to take on one of hers (that I'd already pushed back on to my manager) and another person in the same role also had a full plate, and that I was being passed one of her large projects... that, by the way, would be meeting on another campus.

In this situation, I have no hope of satisfying the product managers, capacity planning managers or anybody really as it's obvious that the manager will just keep sending me projects until I botch them so badly due to lack of time or can't meet deadlines, then they can point to my incompetence.

I haven't asked (and this is something I'd like to hear from you on) my manager yet *why* I was passed over for permanent because I'd like to first learn the best way to get an accurate answer to that question (or, at least how best to phrase it and respond to it).

I suspicion I am being passed over because I have a young child at home that requires I have a dead stop at 5pm to get him from preschool. I also can't go to the conferences like the rest. However, I am doing a great deal of work for this company, sorting out difficult issues, and maintaining quality with my work. I have a great attendance record. I'm responsible and I take ownership of my projects with the understanding that deadlines aren't flexible sometimes. However, when I'm loaded down so ridiculously that I'd have to work from home each evening and weekend just to keep up (I refuse to do that, by the way), that's ridiculous.

Do I have any rights here?What is the name of your state?

[justalayman]

Do I have any rights here?

Absolutely! You have the right to find employment elsewhwere.

The problem I see is are you actually a "independant contractor" or are you simply working through a temp contractor agency. There is a world of difference.

The employer cannot have independant contractors that should be emplyees. It is not an employers decision. The laws require a person that works as an employee to be an employee.

Now if you are working through another agency, that is a different situation and you are not actually a contractor but merely an employee of another company doing work for this one.

[cbg]

Regardless of whether you are an IC or working through a staffing agency, if you are asking whether or not the law compells them to hire you permanently or give you first options at a permanent position, the answer is no, not unless the contract specifically says so. They have no legal obligation to hire anyone. No one has a guaranteed right to be hired.

[barbie613]

Originally Posted by justalayman

Absolutely! You have the right to find employment elsewhwere.

The problem I see is are you actually a "independant contractor" or are you simply working through a temp contractor agency. There is a world of difference.

The employer cannot have independant contractors that should be emplyees. It is not an employers decision. The laws require a person that works as an employee to be an employee.

Now if you are working through another agency, that is a different situation and you are not actually a contractor but merely an employee of another company doing work for this one.

Very funny. I knew somebody would be glib about this. You try working a job with this much pressure, come home to your toddler, take care of him and run your home and we'll see how much time you have to put in to apply for and attend interviews for another job.

Do you think I don't know that? I'm already past the learning curve here. My life is tough enough---I don't even have spare time for important things like seeing my dentist or setting up alternate childcare. It would be nice to stay put and work into something a little less uncomfortable. And, to answer your question, I'm through an agency, working for this company.

[cbg]

You do not have the legal right to guaranteed permanent employment.

You do not have the legal right to be informed of the reason they did not hire you.

Having to leave at 5:00 on the dot every day is a legal and legitimate reason to hire someone else instead.

[justalayman]

Originally Posted by barbie613

Very funny. I knew somebody would be glib about this. You try working a job with this much pressure, come home to your toddler. etc.

glib? Not hardly. Honest? absolutely.

Anytime you want to talk about a tough life, give me call and I'll tell you about my prostate cancer. Along with that, how my daughter is bi-polar and staying with me, again.

and that is only the tip of the iceberg.

Want to compare notes?

Oh, by the way, I'm am electrician by trade. As one journeyman told me while I was an apprentice "'ya know, everyday we work with silent death. You can't hear it (the electricity) you can;t see it, but let your guard down and it will bite you and kill you." add that in to the fact construction is one of the more dangerous jobs in the country. (when is the last time you were in a bucket on a stick 50'-60' or more in the air, or on an extension ladder 30 feet in the air reaching backards to reach your work?)

Still want to compare notes??

[barbie613]

Originally Posted by justalayman

glib? Not hardly. Honest? absolutely.



Anytime you want to talk about a tough life, give me call and I'll tell you about my prostate cancer. Along with that, how my daughter is bi-polar and staying with me, again.

and that is only the tip of the iceberg.

Want to compare notes?

Oh, by the way, I'm am electrician by trade. As one journeyman told me while I was an apprentice "'ya know, everyday we work with silent death. You can't hear it (the electricity) you can;t see it, but let your guard down and it will bite you and kill you." add that in to the fact construction is one of the more dangerous jobs in the country. (when is the last time you were in a bucket on a stick 50'-60' or more in the air, or on an extension ladder 30 feet in the air reaching backards to reach your work?)

Still want to compare notes??

There's a difference between honesty and insensitivity. Then again, a lot of people justify their gracelessness as "being frank". And, sure, I'll compare notes with you any day. What you've written doesn't impress me at all given what I've done and do daily to survive. But I won't go into it here (mostly because I don't have time for a p*ssing contest---and you clearly have more time than I do by virtue of the fact that you can even sit on here answering questions).

I've seen people like you; heck, I've even *been* people like you. I've learned better (and you're too old to not know sooner than me). But I will say one thing, if you feel your life is tough, it should, at the least, give you some sensitivity to the problems others might be experiencing. Perhaps you could start off with that in mind and begin with gentleness, rather than sarcasm.

Good luck with the health problem; that's an uncomfortable hassle I wouldn't wish on anyone.

[barbie613]

Originally Posted by cbg

You do not have the legal right to guaranteed permanent employment.

You do not have the legal right to be informed of the reason they did not hire you.

Having to leave at 5:00 on the dot every day is a legal and legitimate reason to hire someone else instead.

Hmm...yeah, I was afraid of that (another reason why I haven't asked). I guess I can suck it up for another couple of months and, when they lay me off at the one-year mark between contracts, take the time to interview elsewhere.

Ideally, (and I know this isn't the place) it would be nice to talk to someone about how better to manage the situation with my manager. I understand she's doing her job but being the "dumping ground" is an impossible position for anyone on an ongoing basis.

[mitousmom]

Did you ask why you weren't selected for the permanent position? Why do you think you weren't selected because of your inability to stay late or attend conferences? You've told the company that you are interested in permanent employment. If you haven't done so, you need to ask them what it takes to gain permanent employment. You might want to get the opinion of the principal manager who is singing your praises at the moment. I also suggest that you talk with your manager about your assignments.

The EEO laws don't require employers to provide special accommodations for single mothers with young children, but that can't have different selection qualifications for them? Are you aware of any temps who couldn't stay late or attend conferences because of after work committments such as school, etc, but were hired permanently?

It may be time for you to discuss with your agency the possibility of a reassignment. It doesn't appear that the company to which you are assigned values what you bring to the job. I'm not sure that I would wait until August. I'd get something lined up now.

Regardless of your employer, you are going to have to find a better balance between your work life and your home responsibilities. You should explore finding childcare arrangements that give you more flexibility. Unfortunately, your situation is not unique. Mothers have worked out arrangements with other mothers, family members, paid babysitters, etc. to cover them for childcare pick up or for care when work requires their absence.

[barbie613]

Originally Posted by mitousmom

Did you ask why you weren't selected for the permanent position?

As I mentioned, I haven't asked yet. It's doubtful I'll get a truthful answer anyway. That's how these things work. What's obvious is that there is some reason and, after analysis, I see no one else who fits my description or anything similar. Only 2 full-timers in my segment have children and they both just had them in the last year. One tells me that she is trying to not attend conferences for one year but she knows she won't make it that long (meaning, there is a lot of pressure). The other one is doing a lot of work-from-home and she is on a different team from mine so I don't know how that's going but, best guess, it won't last long (on her side, not theirs, because it's so hard to keep pace with what's going in office like that).

Why do you think you weren't selected because of your inability to stay late or attend conferences? You've told the company that you are interested in permanent employment. If you haven't done so, you need to ask them what it takes to gain permanent employment. You might want to get the opinion of the principal manager who is singing your praises at the moment. I also suggest that you talk with your manager about your assignments.

I've asked what it takes a few months prior and was told to just keep doing what I'm doing. I was also told that I could continue to contract there as long as there are open reqs and that, at the end of my one-year, it was possible they'd consider converting so, this other person converting ahead of me was a surprise.

The EEO laws don't require employers to provide special accommodations for single mothers with young children, but that can't have different selection qualifications for them? Are you aware of any temps who couldn't stay late or attend conferences because of after work committments such as school, etc, but were hired permanently?

I'm aware of no one who doesn't attend conferences or travel to some extent.

It may be time for you to discuss with your agency the possibility of a reassignment. It doesn't appear that the company to which you are assigned values what you bring to the job. I'm not sure that I would wait until August. I'd get something lined up now.

If they weren't valuing something, they wouldn't have extended my contract four times. I think what I may be dealing with though is, under the circumstances (mine, currently), this is all they're prepared to offer *me*.

Regardless of your employer, you are going to have to find a better balance between your work life and your home responsibilities. You should explore finding childcare arrangements that give you more flexibility. Unfortunately, your situation is not unique. Mothers have worked out arrangements with other mothers, family members, paid babysitters, etc. to cover them for childcare pick up or for care when work requires their absence.

My child is in someone else's care for nine hours a day. He doesn't come home to two parents; I'm it. I'm not prepared to leave him with someone else to raise him. I understand that I only get one shot at this and he's more important than a career. If I can get to another state where I can live a little more simply, I will do that. If I can start a business that will provide enough financially without demanding more time than I'm already putting in for another company's benefit, I'll do that.

I've had my own business before though and know what kind of hours it takes to get something formative off the ground so it would have to be a very select business to work for my current situation. That's why I've chosen to stay put, working for someone else while my son is little.

The more I think about it, I'm sure they are trying to keep me but keep someone more mobile in the primary positions. The conferences, summits, and offsites are not going to go away and they need someone who can have a seat at the table so the team has a voice.

I don't want my deadlines to slip though as a result of overbooking because that makes me look bad and irritates all involved so I think I need to nicely let my manager know that without causing her to think I can't handle a lot.

[justalayman]

[quote=barbie613;1662286]There's a difference between honesty and insensitivity. Then again, a lot of people justify their gracelessness as "being frank".QUOTE]

Ok, I'll hold your hand.

It is so insensitive of your management to not promote you. You have worked so hard, even if you do not have the time available to fulfill the requiremenets of the position you seek. Damn those people for expecting an employee to do what they need.


The bottom line is; you asked, I answered. I was not condemning nor did I trivialize your situation. I was exacting. I gave you the exact specific answer to your question.

You asked what your rights are and I told you every legal right you have pertaining to this situation.

But wait; I continued to inquire of your situation due to the possibility that there may be more than you posted originally. Do I get credit for that? Hell no. I get told how tough your life is. Well guess what? You aren;t the only one that has experienced your situation. I don;t know very many wealthy folks. Most of my aquaintainces have to work for a living, many of them struggling to simply pay all of their bills and failing all too often. They just announced closure of two of the larger employers in my town. You think they aren;t going to have problems?


I have worked two full time jobs (100 hours/week). I didn;t like it. I FOUND time to go to school to do something different.


You want sympathy? You didn;t ask for it. You asked for an answer. You got it.

Your last post was very telling. You choose to be where you are. You do not want to do more than you are already doing.

My child is in someone else's care for nine hours a day. He doesn't come home to two parents; I'm it. I'm not prepared to leave him with someone else to raise him. I understand that I only get one shot at this and he's more important than a career.

Oh, by the way, there is always the possibility they simply do not want to offer you the position. Still not illegal.

[barbie613]

[quote=justalayman;1662481]

Originally Posted by barbie613

There's a difference between honesty and insensitivity. Then again, a lot of people justify their gracelessness as "being frank".QUOTE]

Ok, I'll hold your hand.

There you go with that attitude again. I bet you win all kinds of congeniality awards too... (sorry, just following your sarcastic examples---feels nice, don't it?)

It is so insensitive of your management to not promote you. You have worked so hard, even if you do not have the time available to fulfill the requiremenets of the position you seek. Damn those people for expecting an employee to do what they need.

I'm more than fulfilling requirements. There are trade offs. I don't take breaks, I handle more complex projects (and this is admitted by managers openly) than some who've been there for years, I'm as accommodating as I can be (everybody certainly doesn't get thanked for "fast response time" or "awesome work with quick turnaround"). You are simply choosing to side with the company in saying they want even more. I acknowledge, if that's the way they want to do it, that's fine. But don't champion that it's fair---they are already getting a lot more from me than from many others.

The bottom line is; you asked, I answered. I was not condemning nor did I trivialize your situation. I was exacting. I gave you the exact specific answer to your question.

...and then some...

You asked what your rights are and I told you every legal right you have pertaining to this situation.

...plus a little more than was necessary...

But wait; I continued to inquire of your situation due to the possibility that there may be more than you posted originally. Do I get credit for that? Hell no.

Okay, I'll hold your hand...Thank you, observant and diligent justalayman.

I get told how tough your life is. Well guess what? You aren;t the only one that has experienced your situation. I don;t know very many wealthy folks. Most of my aquaintainces have to work for a living, many of them struggling to simply pay all of their bills and failing all too often. They just announced closure of two of the larger employers in my town. You think they aren;t going to have problems?

And your acquaintances come to cry on your shoulder for the sensitivity? I think "acquaintances" answers all.

I have worked two full time jobs (100 hours/week). I didn;t like it. I FOUND time to go to school to do something different.

Doesn't seem to have made *you* less bitter. Fact is, I won't be "finding" time for a few years unless I choose to marry. I have a persistent commitment right now and, unlike some, I'd like to not totally screw it up by sacrificing my son.

You want sympathy? You didn;t ask for it. You asked for an answer. You got it.

Noted. Next time, I should at least include a side note for your benefit that sarcasm is optional and, in my case, not necessary.

Your last post was very telling. You choose to be where you are. You do not want to do more than you are already doing.

I *cannot* do more than I'm currently doing. I'd love to be traveling for them in a few years. And, whether they realize it or not, these young kids out of school are gonna have babies eventually too that will jam up this sweatshop mentality.

Oh, by the way, there is always the possibility they simply do not want to offer you the position. Still not illegal.

It's unfortunate that cheap shots are not beneath you. I previously had you pegged as merely a cynic of the I've-worked-hard-life's-tough-but-I'm-still-a-decent-citizen variety. Unfortunately, it may be worse than that.

Instead of analyzing my situation, you might want to take a look at yours and question whether the motivation behind that last remark and lurking in these forums is your way of venting some of the ugly in your life off onto somebody else. Because, sarcasm aside? You're still not really being too helpful. I see your ID is "justalayman" so I'm assuming you may not even be qualified to answer me. In any case, if this is the level of education you get from pursuing a law degree, I can probably figure this out on my own.

[justalayman]

qualifications? what do you require?

I answered your question correctly. Apparently I have the qualifications to provide that.

You see, again you prove you want sympathy:

I'm more than fulfilling requirements. There are trade offs. I don't take breaks, I handle more complex projects (and this is admitted by managers openly) than some who've been there for years, I'm as accommodating as I can be (everybody certainly doesn't get thanked for "fast response time" or "awesome work with quick turnaround"). You are simply choosing to side with the company in saying they want even more. I acknowledge, if that's the way they want to do it, that's fine. But don't champion that it's fair---they are already getting a lot more from me than from many others.

The requirements you posted prior included attending meetings you apparently cannnot, or will not do. Staying later than you are able or willing to do. Traveling which, again, you are either unable or unwilling to do/

Simply put, when you can offer your employer what they require for the position, then you may get a shot. Until then, you are limiting what position you can hold. I'm not saying taking care of your child is a bad thing. I actually respect that BUT do not do that and then complain when you do not get the promotion or position you desire when you cannot fulfill the requirements of those positions because you chose to take care of your child in the manner you have.

btw: nobody EVER told me life was fair. Did somebody tell you that? They lied.

You asked what your rights are and I told you every legal right you have pertaining to this situation.

...plus a little more than was necessary...

Not in my first post, which you decided deserved a less than appreciative response. Yes, the attitude did come out in the last previous post of mine. You complained of being treated unfairly but the comapny actually has reason to deny the placement, which you have so abundently shown here. Then you complain about your life and why you can;t accept the position yet you continue to complain they will not offer it to you.

Maybe your feeling of superiority has put off the management to the point they do not wish to put you in a position where they really must deal with it. Right now, they can simply placate you while you work what you believe to be beyond call and more than anybody else.

Sounds like the company has you right where they want you.

And your acquaintances come to cry on your shoulder for the sensitivity? I think "acquaintances" answers all.

No, I do not offer my shoulder to acquaintances. It is reserved for friends, which I have no problem saying, is a small group but it is intentionally so. I have all the friends I want or need. Don;t concern yourself with that.

I *cannot* do more than I'm currently doing. I'd love to be traveling for them in a few years. And, whether they realize it or not, these young kids out of school are gonna have babies eventually too that will jam up this sweatshop mentality.

whoops! there's that superiority complex again yet tempered with the reality that you cannot do what would be required of you to maintain the position you seek.

[barbie613]

Originally Posted by justalayman

qualifications? what do you require?

I answered your question correctly. Apparently I have the qualifications to provide that.

You see, again you prove you want sympathy:



The requirements you posted prior included attending meetings you apparently cannnot, or will not do. Staying later than you are able or willing to do. Traveling which, again, you are either unable or unwilling to do/

Simply put, when you can offer your employer what they require for the position, then you may get a shot. Until then, you are limiting what position you can hold. I'm not saying taking care of your child is a bad thing. I actually respect that BUT do not do that and then complain when you do not get the promotion or position you desire when you cannot fulfill the requirements of those positions because you chose to take care of your child in the manner you have.

btw: nobody EVER told me life was fair. Did somebody tell you that? They lied.



Not in my first post, which you decided deserved a less than appreciative response. Yes, the attitude did come out in the last previous post of mine. You complained of being treated unfairly but the comapny actually has reason to deny the placement, which you have so abundently shown here. Then you complain about your life and why you can;t accept the position yet you continue to complain they will not offer it to you.

Maybe your feeling of superiority has put off the management to the point they do not wish to put you in a position where they really must deal with it. Right now, they can simply placate you while you work what you believe to be beyond call and more than anybody else.

Sounds like the company has you right where they want you.

No, I do not offer my shoulder to acquaintances. It is reserved for friends, which I have no problem saying, is a small group but it is intentionally so. I have all the friends I want or need. Don;t concern yourself with that.



whoops! there's that superiority complex again yet tempered with the reality that you cannot do what would be required of you to maintain the position you seek.

I think you're probably fulfilling the role you exist on these forums to exercise but I'm not interested in your justifications, analyzations or assumptions. Unfortunately, you exhausted your usefulness to me when you responded to the first post. Good luck.

[Tinaa]

op is way overmatched here