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Insane teacher ask kid to bring real firearm to school...Kid arrested

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ljcoop

Junior Member
What is the name of your state? California
I'll make this brief if I can but it's complicated.
I was storing my neighbors pistol in my gunsafe.
When I got home from work, the neighbor's kid (15 year old great kid with good grades) was at my house asking for the gun. He said his class was doing a play on the Mafia and the teacher said he could bring a real gun (unloaded) to school for the play.
I told him he can't do that.
He produced a note from his teacher saying so.
I called his mother and verified that she had checked and this was true.
She said yes, give him the gun.
I thought maybe I misunderstood the intended use of the gun so I gave it to him.
Anyway, the following day, his grandmother took him to school and told him to leave the gun in the backpack, don't show it to anyone.
The teacher took the gum out of the paper sack he had it in, showed it to the class and then set it in open view by her desk all day.
The play didn't happen that day because of time restraints.
So she allowed him to take the gun home and bring it the following day.
Meanst while, I realized that this gun was in fact going to a high school.
I informed a friend about how worried I was and how insane that teacher must be.
Every scenario I considered in my head concerning the pistol at school was a bad one. Everything from him being shot by a school police officer to him being knifed by gang members to get the gun ran through my head.
The next moring my buddy called and said we need to do something and I agreed. He called the police who contacted the School Resource Officer (city cop)assigned to the school. My friend told her we didn't want the kid in trouble but the gun removed from the school and the teacher counciled. She said yes.
She called me for further information and I supplied the boy's name and which class was putting on the play. I told her he was a good boy from a good family who are just naive about firearms so not to jam him up for doing what the teacher said. She agreed.
My gut told me not to trust this cop so I called my friend and we went to the school.
We got there just in time to see the poor kid arrested, handcuffed and led out to a police car. Then the cop came out, and snottily ask us what we wanted. We told her we wanted to see the boy released and the teacher arrested.
She said the teacher admitted the note but they have proceedures to follow then pretty much told us to get lost.
So we went to the police station. We talked to a detective involved in the case. He told us that because of the note, he probably wouldn't be charged with the gun but he also had a switchblade knife and other illegal stuff in his backpack.
Some of the props he was to supply were guns, (real, airsoft and another toy gun). An empty bottle of booze, a pack of cigarettes and any other props needed. The switchblade was a bad choice but he is a kid. His mother didn't request the note to cover the other stuff because she was concerned mainly about the gun.
The end result wasd the kid was cited and released to his mother for carrying a concealed firearm on school grounds and having a swithblade knife. Both felonies.
We all met back at the school and talked to two assistant vice principals to see if the boy was suspended. After their invesigation, they decided that the kid wasn't at fault, appoligized to him and his mother and said he wouldn't be suspended or expelled.
That was the school but he still faces the criminal charges.
We are wondering what we should do next?
Thanks for your time.

Larry
 


rmet4nzkx

Senior Member
I don't know where to start.

In what school district did this occur? Was this in the news?

Does this child and his mother have a criminal defense attorney?
 

ljcoop

Junior Member
Well, it was in No. Ca (butte County) and no, it wasn't in the news...yet!
We are hoping that the school will talk to the D.A.
He was arrested and cited.
This is what we don't know.
Does he need an attorney?
Will it be dropped?
The kids mother doesn't want the teacher fired but I really don't think someone with judgement that poor should be a teacher.
I feel so bad that I gave the gun to the kid, even though it wasn't my call. I should have known better. I just assumed it wouldn't be actually taken to school because no teacher in her right mind would allow this, So I thought.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
He was likely charged with PC 626.10(a) for the knife and PC 626.9.

A defense for 626.10(a) would be that he brought the knife at the direction of a certificated employee of the school (the teacher) for use in a school or class project (the play). Since he had written permission, this is a specific exception under the law.

To possess a gun on campus would require the written permission of the school superntendent or his designee (per PC 626.9(b)). One COULD argue that the teacher is the superintendent's designee.

Since the student was likely acting under the reasonable assumption that the teacher could authorize this, I would say that the DA is not likely to charge for any of this. But, I could be wrong. In any event, it is my opinion that the teacher should be severely disciplined up to and including termination. This was an incredibly bone-head act. Of course, loaning out a firearm to a kid - even unloaded and for a play - is a VERY BAD idea as well.

There are other charges they could bring against him as well. If he brought the weapon to school concealed they could bring charges for carrying a concealed firearm and those do not provide for an exception because of the teacher's permission.

So, yes, his parents need to get him an attorney ASAP!

- Carl
 

rmet4nzkx

Senior Member
Butte county, did this occur in Chico?
As Carl said, this teacher was a real bonehead and if they actually wrote a note and admitted to it, and the gun was witnessed by others then the kid has a good defense even if the note didn't include the other items, they were implied and might fall under CA EC 623. All the adults involved need some serious help with understanding what is appropriate and when to act, e.g. calling the Superentendent of schools or the police rather than sending the gun would have been appropriate. I am concerned when you say the boy and his family are naive, which may indicate some other problem which may crop up again.

I was a bit surprised when I looked up the school's discipline policy:
from http://www.chs.chico.k12.ca.us/documents/Disc_Handbk_05-06.doc
Suspension (E.C. 48900)
Suspension is the removal of a pupil from ongoing instruction for adjustment purposes.
A student may be suspended from class/school for disciplinary reasons by administrative or teacher action. A principal or designee may suspend a student for not more than five consecutive school days; a teacher may suspend for the remainder of the day in which the misbehavior occurred and the day following (from their class only). A suspension may be extended under certain conditions, when an expulsion hearing is pending. There are two kinds of suspension, on-campus suspension and at-home suspension.

EDUCATION CODE
SECTION 48900

48900. A pupil may not be suspended from school or recommended for expulsion, unless the superintendent or the principal of the school in which the pupil is enrolled determines that the pupil has committed an act as defined pursuant to any of subdivisions (a) to
(q), inclusive:**************.
(m) Possessed an imitation firearm. As used in this section, "imitation firearm" means a replica of a firearm that is so substantially similar in physical properties to an existing firearm as to lead a reasonable person to conclude that the replica is a firearm.
...
(o) Harassed, threatened, or intimidated a pupil who is a complaining witness or a witness in a school disciplinary proceeding for the purpose of either preventing that pupil from being a witness or retaliating against that pupil for being a witness, or both.
(p) Unlawfully offered, arranged to sell, negotiated to sell, or sold the prescription drug Soma.
(q) Engaged in, or attempted to engage in, hazing as defined in Section 32050.
(r) A pupil may not be suspended or expelled for any of the acts enumerated in this section, unless that act is related to school activity or school attendance occurring within a school under the jurisdiction of the superintendent or principal or occurring within any other school district. A pupil may be suspended or expelled for acts that are enumerated in this section and related to school activity or attendance that occur at any time, including, but not limited to, any of the following:
(1) While on school grounds.
(2) While going to or coming from school.
(3) During the lunch period whether on or off the campus.
(4) During, or while going to or coming from, a school sponsored activity.
(s) A pupil who aids or abets, as defined in Section 31 of the Penal Code, the infliction or attempted infliction of physical injury to another person may suffer suspension, but not expulsion, pursuant to this section, except that a pupil who has been adjudged by a juvenile court to have committed, as an aider and abettor, a crime of physical violence in which the victim suffered great bodily injury or serious bodily injury shall be subject to discipline pursuant to subdivision (a).
(t) As used in this section, "school property" includes, but is not limited to, electronic files and databases.
(u) A superintendent or principal may use his or her discretion to provide alternatives to suspension or expulsion, including, but not limited to, counseling and an anger management program, for a pupil subject to discipline under this section.
(v) It is the intent of the Legislature that alternatives to suspension or expulsion be imposed against any pupil who is truant, tardy, or otherwise absent from school activities.



Board Policy 5045

Safe School Environment Goals

The Governing Board recognizes the benefits to students and staff of a safe educational environment. The Board is committed to the goal of a safe, caring, nondiscriminatory school climate that is conducive to learning and enables students to feel safe and realize their full potential.

The Governing Board supports both a proactive approach and early intervention to curb school violence, crime, drug and alcohol abuse, and other negative detractors to the school learning environment.

The Governing Board shall authorize the superintendent or designees to develop a comprehensive district-wide school safety plan, with site level participation, in order to ensure compliance with law, Board policy and administrative procedure.

Search and Seizure

To maintain order and discipline in the schools and to protect the safety and welfare of students and personnel, school authorities may physically search a student, as well as his/her effects including, but not limited to, student lockers, desks, cubby holes, clothing, backpacks, purses, book bags, brief cases and other such containers, or student automobiles based upon reasonable suspicion, meaning whether there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that the search will turn up evidence that the student has violated or is violating either the law or the rules of the school. Such a search will be permissible in its scope when the measures adopted are reasonably related to the objectives of the search and not excessively intrusive in light of the age and sex of the student and the nature of the infraction. Because student lockers, desks, cubbyholes and similar storage areas are the property of the District and because the control of such areas is joint between the student and the District, these areas are subject to search at any time.

In general, immediately prior to undertaking a search, it will be appropriate for school authorities to question the student about the incident and/or object of the search. While consent is not necessary upon a reasonable suspicion to search, in general, a student will be provided with the opportunity to consent.

Reasonable suspicion searches may be conducted of a student while the student is on school grounds, under school or district supervision and/or while engaged in a school or district activity. The products of such a search may be turned over to the proper legal authorities, including, but not limited to, the Chico Police, Butte County Sheriff, and/or utilized by the District itself for ultimate disposition and/or use as evidence. Appropriate school disciplinary action will be implemented.

Detection Devices

The Board believes that the presence of drugs, weapons, vandalism, theft and violence in the schools threatens the district's ability to provide an appropriate learning environment The Board believes that the proper use of detection devices, such as, but not limited to, metal detectors, surveillance cameras, drug sniffing canines, and/or substance detectors may be necessary to further the goal of an appropriate school environment.

Such detection devices shall be utilized only under the direction of the Superintendent in consultation with legal counsel and site administration.

Parents/students will be notified annually regarding the use of detection and surveillance devices.

High School Undercover Operations

The Board believes that the use of narcotics officers working in undercover roles on high school campuses may be necessary under certain circumstances. Such officers shall be utilized only under the direction of the Superintendent in consultation with legal counsel and site administration. Such operations will be undertaken in a manner to ensure the safety of students.

Legal Reference:

EDUCATION CODE

35160 Authority of governing boards

35160.1 Board authority of school districts

35294-35294.5 School safety plans

49050-49051 Searches by school employees
And here for the district policy
Chico Unified School District ...
The Chico Unified School District recognizes the benefits of a safe educational ... possession or control of drugs, weapons, alcohol and other materials ...
www.cusd.chico.k12.ca.us/documents/Policy_and_Procedure/AP5045.1.pdf
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
There are four incorporated cities in Butte County: Chico, Oroville, Gridley-Biggs (2 seperate but partially merged towns), and Paradise. And there are 14 school districts in the county. But, all likely have similar policies in this regard.

And given the apparent fact the child had a note and permission from a teacher, I can see why the school might have opted not to discipline the student for this.

- Carl
 

ljcoop

Junior Member
Sorry, I meant to say his family is naive about firearms but have learned an important lesson here. I'm going to see if I can get the kid into a hunters saftey class soon.
And you are right about the adults, including myself. My father in law died that day and I had alot on my plate but it still isn't an excuse.
To my credit though, I did argue with him and his mother about the appropriateness and dangers of it beforehand. But I shouldn't have stopped there. I did however the next morning decide to have my friend report it.
I didn't really want to say what district this occured in so it didn't make the news and could possibly blow over in time.
But like I said, we don't know how the D.A. makes these determinations.
If it makes the paper or news, it can't possibly blow over and the poor kid could get burned bad.
It was just an awful situation, his mom was crying and had an anxioty attack while in the vice principal's office. She couldn't even talk which is why I went in and explained that all of us adults, me, his mom, his grand-ma, the teacher, and even the school were more culpable than the boy.
The police made copies of the letter and verified it was written by the teacher. The School gave his mom a copy also.
The school also ask the boy to write a statement of what occured to be handed in this Wed. My friend and I told them that since he has been arrested and charged that we didn't think this was a good idea. They insisted and we convinced the boys mother not to let that happen without the advise of a lawyer.
Which is another reason I'm on here, they can't afford a lawyer right now. I thought I could find out some info here before hand.
 

rmet4nzkx

Senior Member
ljcoop said:
Sorry, I meant to say his family is naive about firearms but have learned an important lesson here. I'm going to see if I can get the kid into a hunters saftey class soon.
And you are right about the adults, including myself. My father in law died that day and I had alot on my plate but it still isn't an excuse.
To my credit though, I did argue with him and his mother about the appropriateness and dangers of it beforehand. But I shouldn't have stopped there. I did however the next morning decide to have my friend report it.
I didn't really want to say what district this occured in so it didn't make the news and could possibly blow over in time.
But like I said, we don't know how the D.A. makes these determinations.
If it makes the paper or news, it can't possibly blow over and the poor kid could get burned bad.
It was just an awful situation, his mom was crying and had an anxioty attack while in the vice principal's office. She couldn't even talk which is why I went in and explained that all of us adults, me, his mom, his grand-ma, the teacher, and even the school were more culpable than the boy.
The police made copies of the letter and verified it was written by the teacher. The School gave his mom a copy also.
The school also ask the boy to write a statement of what occured to be handed in this Wed. My friend and I told them that since he has been arrested and charged that we didn't think this was a good idea. They insisted and we convinced the boys mother not to let that happen without the advise of a lawyer.
Which is another reason I'm on here, they can't afford a lawyer right now. I thought I could find out some info here before hand.
The newspapers should know about this rather than the school district cover up their culpability which is what is happening while at the same time placing the stress of their poor management on the parents and student. They will keep the child's name confidential because he is a minor. There is no reason to bring real weapons to the school for props for a play, the school policy even prohibits possession of a fake gun, so such requests by the teacher are not congruent with school or district policy if this occured in Chico, as Carl said the other schools have similar policies. If this had been reported to the school rather than the police, most likely, it would have stopped there. Now the school is caught in a cover up that is why going to the newspapers with the story, the evidence (the teacher's note) is more likely to get the DA to drop charges, which may or not have reached them, without the need for an attorney and possibly charge the teacher instead, all of which would be in the service of public policy and the child's name should never be published. The students at the school already know who the student is, that fact cannot be changed.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
ljcoop said:
Sorry, I meant to say his family is naive about firearms but have learned an important lesson here. I'm going to see if I can get the kid into a hunters saftey class soon.
You might want to rethink your ever-closing relationshipe here. YOU face potential criminal charges as well! You provided a minor with a firearm! Getting the kid into a Hunter Safety program is a good idea, but it does nothing to mitigate his and your potential liability here.

I didn't really want to say what district this occured in so it didn't make the news and could possibly blow over in time.
If the police know about it, the press have a right to it. The Chico Enterprise Record regularly searches for records of police responses in Chico and Oroville, but less so in Gridley and in Paradise.

But like I said, we don't know how the D.A. makes these determinations.
Based on the law.

She couldn't even talk which is why I went in and explained that all of us adults, me, his mom, his grand-ma, the teacher, and even the school were more culpable than the boy.
No ... the "school" is not culpable, the teacher that permitted this might be, but the "school" and its administration did not apparently give permission for this to happen.

The school also ask the boy to write a statement of what occured to be handed in this Wed. My friend and I told them that since he has been arrested and charged that we didn't think this was a good idea. They insisted and we convinced the boys mother not to let that happen without the advise of a lawyer.
Be careful when you toss out legal advice like that because there is such a thing as the "law of unintended consequences."

The school could STILL expel the kid! If the child does not wish to write his version of events so that they can justify NOT expelling him, they may decide that their safest course of action is to pursue suspension with the intent to expel him.

[qute]Which is another reason I'm on here, they can't afford a lawyer right now. I thought I could find out some info here before hand.[/QUOTE]
When he has to go to court an attorney can be appointed to represent him.

- Carl
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
rmet4nzkx said:
The newspapers should know about this rather than the school district cover up their culpability which is what is happening while at the same time placing the stress of their poor management on the parents and student.
They really don't have to cover anything up. It's not their responsibility to TELL the press about this. I can see the result of press coverage being more likely to result in the teacher's dismissal than anything else.

They will keep the child's name confidential because he is a minor.
They probably will. But, as an FYI, the press does not HAVE to keep it confidential; they are under no legal prohibition from printing the name. The police and the school might have to keep it under wraps, but the press does not have to keep it secret if they manage to find out somehow. And chances are SOMEONE knows who he is and what happened.

If this had been reported to the school rather than the police, most likely, it would have stopped there.
The school would have been obligated to call the police. The schools in Butte County tend to do things by the numbers.

I will have to start monitoring the Chico ER to see if it pops up.

- Carl
 

rmet4nzkx

Senior Member
CdwJava said:
You might want to rethink your ever-closing relationshipe here. YOU face potential criminal charges as well! You provided a minor with a firearm! Getting the kid into a Hunter Safety program is a good idea, but it does nothing to mitigate his and your potential liability here.
Couldn't this wash several ways, if as Larry says he had possession of the neighbor family's weapon,in his gun safe for safe keeping and questioned the mother who confirmed she had the note requestioning the weapon for the play and authorized Larry to release their weapon to the boy. It would seem that the evidence might mitigate that to some extent although it could be charged?

If the police know about it, the press have a right to it. The Chico Enterprise Record regularly searches for records of police responses in Chico and Oroville, but less so in Gridley and in Paradise.
The good old Police Blotter, it is a matter of public record and the ChicoER.com was covering graduation from CSUC this weekend and will be ready for a new story for their front page.


No ... the "school" is not culpable, the teacher that permitted this might be, but the "school" and its administration did not apparently give permission for this to happen.
Actually the school could be responsible because the teacher is their agent under the legal doctrine of Respondeat Superior
(rehs-pond-dee-at superior) n. Latin for "let the master answer," a key doctrine in the law of agency, which provides that a principal (employer) is responsible for the actions of his/her/its agent (employee) in the "course of employment." Thus, an agent who signs an agreementin this case the note requesting the weapon for use as a prop in the play, for his employer in the name of the employer can create a binding contract between the seller and the employer. Other implied agreements would be found in CA EC 623 re the other "props" the child brought to school.

Be careful when you toss out legal advice like that because there is such a thing as the "law of unintended consequences."
The child should prepare a chronology of the events for their attorney, the school already has knowledge of the pertenant facts e.g. the teacher's note. They should contact the Public Defender's office Monday if they can't afford an attorney.

The school could STILL expel the kid! If the child does not wish to write his version of events so that they can justify NOT expelling him, they may decide that their safest course of action is to pursue suspension with the intent to expel him.
While that is possible, their actions and admissions might prevent them based on estoppel and such an action might be seen as retaliation

Which is another reason I'm on here, they can't afford a lawyer right now. I thought I could find out some info here before hand.
When he has to go to court an attorney can be appointed to represent him.

- Carl[/QUOTE]
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
rmet4nzkx said:
Couldn't this wash several ways, if as Larry says he had possession of the neighbor family's weapon,in his gun safe for safe keeping and questioned the mother who confirmed she had the note requestioning the weapon for the play and authorized Larry to release their weapon to the boy. It would seem that the evidence might mitigate that to some extent although it could be charged?
It could keep him out of trouble if mom gave permission. In fact, it is very likely he won't be charged. But he shouldn't count on ever getting a concealed carry permit.

The good old Police Blotter, it is a matter of public record and the ChicoER.com was covering graduation from CSUC this weekend and will be ready for a new story for their front page.
However, they don't have a very dedicated police reporter so they only link up with a few key stories. So, unless someone tips them off, there is a good chance that this will slip under their radar. Some cities (like mine) have nosy newspapers that demand a list of ALL activity. This would definitely come out where I live.

Actually the school could be responsible because the teacher is their agent under the legal doctrine of Respondeat Superior
(rehs-pond-dee-at superior) n. Latin for "let the master answer," a key doctrine in the law of agency, which provides that a principal (employer) is responsible for the actions of his/her/its agent (employee) in the "course of employment." Thus, an agent who signs an agreementin this case the note requesting the weapon for use as a prop in the play, for his employer in the name of the employer can create a binding contract between the seller and the employer. Other implied agreements would be found in CA EC 623 re the other "props" the child brought to school.
I'm thinking criminal prosecution, not civil liability.

The school (i.e. the administration) not only did nothing to encourage this action, they were not even aware of the teacher's actions surroundign the play and the weapons (apparently). Further, the teacher was arguably acting outside the scope of his employment and thus his actions might not provide a nexus for liability to the school. The "school" is not likely to be held accountable for the criminal acts of its employees. Someone can try to do so, but it would be a difficult case.

But, since there is no civil issue to be made here (not yet anyway) it is a moot point.

The child should prepare a chronology of the events for their attorney, the school already has knowledge of the pertenant facts e.g. the teacher's note. They should contact the Public Defender's office Monday if they can't afford an attorney.
An attorney could not be assigned until after the arraignment.

While that is possible, their actions and admissions might prevent them based on estoppel and such an action might be seen as retaliation
Only if the matter was truly closed. If not, then I can see the district looking at potential liability for permitting the student to bring a gun on campus. Without a verifiable version of events from him, they can fall back on the simple facts which include the criminal possession of a firearm on campus - a violation that can result in expulsion.

- Carl
 

ljcoop

Junior Member
That same night when this happened I was watching the news and somewhere back East a school was locked down and all the students searched because someone "thought" they saw someone put a gun into a backpack. Since this was a for sure thing I'm sure it would have been newsworthy to say the least.
I hadn't considered myself implicated in it but frankly it wouldn't have made alot of difference to me. I just wanted that gun off the campus.
Even the kid's mother hasn't mentioned any civil action and if she ask me I believe I would tell her to worry about getting her son out of this mess then let sleeping dogs lie.
The Vice-Principal did tell me that he would have had to alert the resource officer of the situation anyway.
All in all though, things could have turned out better but at least no one got physicly hurt. When his mother told me how upset she was about having her son cuffed and locked in a cell then picking him up at the police station all I could think of to say is "better than the morgue".
I do want to thank everyone for their quick and informative responses.

Larry
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
I am shocked that, teachers note or not, ANY parent would even consider sending a gun to school with their child!
In this situation, I would have been on the phone with school/district officials as soon as I saw a note like that!
 
C

CALIF-PROLAW30

Guest
My response:

Agreed. Also, here's a rhetorical couple of questions: Has that teacher been living under a rock since before "Columbine"? Did she NOT read, or get, the Memos?

IAAL
 
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