Second degree assault for self defense?

[jklein]

What is the name of your state? Maryland

Hi, first post here, need some juvenile advice unfortunately and this seems to be a very helpful bunch.

My youngest son (16) had some "friends" over last week who made off with my 18 yr old son's X-box after everyone went to sleep. Both my sons knew who did it and went to get it, only to discover that the thief's older brother was a knife wielding drug dealer who came after them with a knife so they took off.

Today, they found out in school that one of the local kids had two X-boxes, one of which he just bought from this druggie kid. So after school my two sons drove to his bus stop with a couple mutual friends of this kid's, explained the situation to him and asked if they could see the X-box he bought. The kid then invited them to his house to check it out so they parked the car and walked with the kid down the street to his house.

The kid went inside while my boys and the two mutual friends (who were also brothers) waited in the street outside of the fence. He comes to the door with an X-box and although he was 15 feet away, my 18yr old knew it wasn't his so he asked the kid if they could see the other one. The kid put the X-box inside, then came outside with two long-ass hunting knives, threw them down so they stuck into the ground, then proceeded to jump the fence and start punching one of their friends.

My 16 yr old ran over and pulled this kid off his friend, whereas the kid turns and starts fighting my son. He of course tries to push the kid away and block his punches but the kid won't stop so he finally gets a lucky few punches in and bloodies the kid's nose up. When the kid backs off finally, my son tells him "stop it, I'm not going to fight you anymore" and they all start to leave as the kid runs back over to his yard.

As my boys and their friends are walking away, this kid goes and grabs the hunting knives and comes after them, telling them "this one (knife) is for you and this one's for you". They all take off and run back to the car, yelling at the kid that they're going to call the police, which they do once they get back in the car.

So, a policeman comes and after listening to the situation charges the kid with first degree assault, but also charges my 16yr old with second degree assault. I explain the whole situation to him (I'm there by this time), the X-box background, and how this kid invited them to his house, only to attack them with knives. All the policeman can say is the kid's Grandmother is this poor honest woman with a bad grandson, and that he can't make any determination on the offenses, we'll just have to explain the circumstances in court and hope for the best, and that if he's got a good record it shouldn't be a big deal. Also that my son should have just called the police instead of jumping in to pull this kid off his friend.

What worries me is that my son does have quite a few misdemeanors from running with some bad kids, but they moved a couple years ago and he's been doing good and staying out of trouble since then. It was all just stupid prank stuff like stealing tire valve caps, breaking into abandoned buildings (one of the kids left some smoldering papers from their "campfire" that caused a lot of smoke and therefore the fire dept came but no damage), wandering through the school after hours and messing up the teachers lounge, even breaking a window 10 ft up in a business park which unfortunately turned out to be a doctor's office so they made a big deal of it. Stupid stuff where he didn't actively destroy stuff but the kids he was with did and he didn't have the sense to take a hike. That last one was the only one to actually go to court so it scared the crap out of him, which turned out to be a good thing.

What I'm trying to figure out is what the heck is second degree assault defined as in Maryland, how is is properly applied, would my son's attempt to rescue his friend rightfully be called assault if he was just trying to pull the guy off, can the officer really rightfully charge him with this, and if so, what's my best legal tact with the juvenile court to try and get this talked out without going to court again?

Sorry this is so long but it's kind of involved, so thanks for reading this far. Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Jeff K.

 

[CdwJava]

This is the kind of thing that happens when people try to take the law in to their own hands.

It will probably be argued that your son and his pals intimidated the kid into agreeing to let them look at the X-Box and then they tried to steal it from him or they threatened him. He will likely argue that he got the knives to defend himself.

This showed some really bad judgement on the part of your son. When people start gathering their friends to go retrieve property, no good can come of it.

You should probably obtain an attorney for your son.

- Carl

 

[jklein]

It will probably be argued that your son and his pals intimidated the kid into agreeing to let them look at the X-Box and then they tried to steal it from him or they threatened him. He will likely argue that he got the knives to defend himself.
This showed some really bad judgement on the part of your son. When people start gathering their friends to go retrieve property, no good can come of it.
- Carl

Luckily there was a neighbor outside who saw the whole thing and verified that they didn't threaten the kid and he attacked them. Although the Grandmother freaked when the fight broke out (like any of us would), she can't deny that her grandson initiated it.

From my kids' perspectives, they were doing nothing wrong with checking into this, they even brought the two mutual friends to put this kid at ease so he wouldn't be freaked out. They just wanted to see if the X-box (that incidently he traded drugs to buy) was theirs, and would have bought it back from the kid if so.

Would I have preferred they told me first and waited until after I got home to accompany them? Yeah, absolutely, but in going over to ask this kid to see the X-box and summarily being invited to the kid's house, and never setting foot on this kid's property, and then being attacked by a knife wielding nut-job, I don't think my youngest should have been charged with second degree assault for rescuiing his friend (the smallest kid in the group) from being pummelled by this punk.

If this ends up going to court, you bet we'll be getting a lawyer. However, the initial interview at the Dept of Juvenile Justice doesn't involve attorneys, it's just an interview where they decide whether to send it on to court, or work it out amongst the parents.

So, my question at this point is not should they have gone over there, but rather is what my son did in pulling this kid off of his friend, and then defending himself when the kid turned on him, considered second degree assault? I feel my son is the victim here and would like to convince the interview of this and get this dismissed.

Thanks,
Jeff K.

 

[stealth2]

What worries me is that my son does have quite a few misdemeanors from running with some bad kids, but they moved a couple years ago and he's been doing good and staying out of trouble since then. It was all just stupid prank stuff like stealing tire valve caps, breaking into abandoned buildings (one of the kids left some smoldering papers from their "campfire" that caused a lot of smoke and therefore the fire dept came but no damage), wandering through the school after hours and messing up the teachers lounge, even breaking a window 10 ft up in a business park which unfortunately turned out to be a doctor's office so they made a big deal of it. Stupid stuff where he didn't actively destroy stuff but the kids he was with did and he didn't have the sense to take a hike. That last one was the only one to actually go to court so it scared the crap out of him, which turned out to be a good thing.

Yep, real good boy you've got there. Most of that which you call "stupid prank stuff" the rest of call vandalism.

Your son needs a lawyer.

 

[jklein]

Yep, real good boy you've got there. Most of that which you call "stupid prank stuff" the rest of call vandalism. Your son needs a lawyer.

Yes, I understand that he's not a saint but he's not a dirtbag either and we got him away from that bad crowd and he's been a good kid since. Actually he always was, but he doesn't take a stand for himself when kids around him dream up stupid crap to do (yeah, stuff that isn't saintly, but we're all perfect right?). This isn't the inner city with thugs and gangs, he's a middle class kid who got in with some troublemakers, made some mistakes, and has since grown up a bit.

With respect, I'm not asking for character comments on my son, or my parenting abilities, or what should or should not have happened. What I'm trying to learn is does this second degree assault charge hold any legal water? The cop claims that my son should have called 911 instead and watched his friend get beat up while waiting for the cops (by which time his friend could have been seriously injured). But hey, by the same token, Knife-boy should have stayed in his house with Grandma and called the police if he felt threatened.

Here are the facts: this kid came off of his property after wielding hunting knives in a threatening manner, attacked the smallest kid in the group, turned on my son when he attempted to pull the kid off (btw, my son's also quite small), and chased them all down the street with the knives again after my son got the kid to back off and was voluntarily trying to walk away.

Now, regardless of what unrelated trouble my son may have gotten into in the past and already paid the consequences for, and which the policeman was not aware of anyway, does this fit the legal guidelines for when a second degree assault charge would be applied to someone in my son's position? Do you know of any links that would describe guidelines which are followed for assault charges in Maryland juvenile law?

Thanks,
Jeff K.

 

[bigdanny817]

What is the name of your state? Maryland

Hi, first post here, need some juvenile advice unfortunately and this seems to be a very helpful bunch.

My youngest son (16) had some "friends" over last week who made off with my 18 yr old son's X-box after everyone went to sleep. Both my sons knew who did it and went to get it, only to discover that the thief's older brother was a knife wielding drug dealer who came after them with a knife so they took off.

Today, they found out in school that one of the local kids had two X-boxes, one of which he just bought from this druggie kid. So after school my two sons drove to his bus stop with a couple mutual friends of this kid's, explained the situation to him and asked if they could see the X-box he bought. The kid then invited them to his house to check it out so they parked the car and walked with the kid down the street to his house.

The kid went inside while my boys and the two mutual friends (who were also brothers) waited in the street outside of the fence. He comes to the door with an X-box and although he was 15 feet away, my 18yr old knew it wasn't his so he asked the kid if they could see the other one. The kid put the X-box inside, then came outside with two long-ass hunting knives, threw them down so they stuck into the ground, then proceeded to jump the fence and start punching one of their friends.

My 16 yr old ran over and pulled this kid off his friend, whereas the kid turns and starts fighting my son. He of course tries to push the kid away and block his punches but the kid won't stop so he finally gets a lucky few punches in and bloodies the kid's nose up. When the kid backs off finally, my son tells him "stop it, I'm not going to fight you anymore" and they all start to leave as the kid runs back over to his yard.

As my boys and their friends are walking away, this kid goes and grabs the hunting knives and comes after them, telling them "this one (knife) is for you and this one's for you". They all take off and run back to the car, yelling at the kid that they're going to call the police, which they do once they get back in the car.

So, a policeman comes and after listening to the situation charges the kid with first degree assault, but also charges my 16yr old with second degree assault. I explain the whole situation to him (I'm there by this time), the X-box background, and how this kid invited them to his house, only to attack them with knives. All the policeman can say is the kid's Grandmother is this poor honest woman with a bad grandson, and that he can't make any determination on the offenses, we'll just have to explain the circumstances in court and hope for the best, and that if he's got a good record it shouldn't be a big deal. Also that my son should have just called the police instead of jumping in to pull this kid off his friend.

What worries me is that my son does have quite a few misdemeanors from running with some bad kids, but they moved a couple years ago and he's been doing good and staying out of trouble since then. It was all just stupid prank stuff like stealing tire valve caps, breaking into abandoned buildings (one of the kids left some smoldering papers from their "campfire" that caused a lot of smoke and therefore the fire dept came but no damage), wandering through the school after hours and messing up the teachers lounge, even breaking a window 10 ft up in a business park which unfortunately turned out to be a doctor's office so they made a big deal of it. Stupid stuff where he didn't actively destroy stuff but the kids he was with did and he didn't have the sense to take a hike. That last one was the only one to actually go to court so it scared the crap out of him, which turned out to be a good thing.

What I'm trying to figure out is what the heck is second degree assault defined as in Maryland, how is is properly applied, would my son's attempt to rescue his friend rightfully be called assault if he was just trying to pull the guy off, can the officer really rightfully charge him with this, and if so, what's my best legal tact with the juvenile court to try and get this talked out without going to court again?

Sorry this is so long but it's kind of involved, so thanks for reading this far. Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Jeff K.

can u make ur son sound anymore innocent??? "stop it, I'm not going to fight you anymore"
maybe u should actually get the real story instead of some bs ur son made up...

 

[Shay-Pari'e]

https://forum.freeadvice.com/showthread.php?t=316214

*waves to Kelly*

 

[CdwJava]

Do you know of any links that would describe guidelines which are followed for assault charges in Maryland juvenile law?

Here's the actual law:

§ 3-203. Assault in the second degree.

(a) Prohibited.- A person may not commit an assault.

(b) Penalty.- Except as provided in subsection (c) of this section, a person who violates subsection (a) of this section is guilty of the misdemeanor of assault in the second degree and on conviction is subject to imprisonment not exceeding 10 years or a fine not exceeding $2,500 or both.

(c) Law enforcement officer.-

(1) In this subsection, "physical injury" means any impairment of physical condition, excluding minor injuries.

(2) A person may not intentionally cause physical injury to another if the person knows or has reason to know that the other is a law enforcement officer engaged in the performance of the officer's official duties.

(3) A person who violates paragraph (2) of this subsection is guilty of the felony of assault in the second degree and on conviction is subject to imprisonment not exceeding 10 years or a fine not exceeding $5,000 or both.

There really is not a great deal to explain to it. He committed assault. if he wants to argue that it was self defense he'll need an attorney to make that claim.

- Carl

 

[jklein]

bigdanny817, thanks for your exceedingly insightful advice. I'm sorry, your name doesn't seem familiar but you must be an awfully close friend of my son to know him so well. Your response gives the rest of this forum a bad name and is extremely unappreciated, especially in light of my earlier request to leave character judgements out of the otherwise helpful responses.

CdwJava, thanks for the quote. I don't seem to have worded my question quite correctly; I was able to find that verbage as well, but it didn't detail what the actual definition of assault is. I'm guessing from your reply that fighting, no matter what the reason, is considered assault.

Thanks for the _helpful_ replies; if this does get sent on to juvenile court we will get a lawyer. Hopefully it won't go that far.

Jeff K.

 

[CdwJava]

CdwJava, thanks for the quote. I don't seem to have worded my question quite correctly; I was able to find that verbage as well, but it didn't detail what the actual definition of assault is. I'm guessing from your reply that fighting, no matter what the reason, is considered assault.

From 3-210:

(b) Assault.- "Assault" means the crimes of assault, battery, and assault and battery, which retain their judicially determined meanings.

From this vague terminology, I would presume that simply laying hands on another against their will or with the intent to cause harm could be considered "assault".

I have to say that the totality of the circumstances here are not going to put your son in a good light. It was not a good idea to go over there with a few of his friends for a host of reasons ... and it could easily be interpreted as an aggressive act on his part. However, I have seen cases where the prosecutor looks at this sort of thing and calls it a wash.

It is not in the hands of his attorney.

- Carl