Trespassing

[MHarris]

I figured I'd post this in this thread as well, I don't know if it applies to juvenile law or not, but I am 16 and so are my friends that were with me. On to my story.

I live in Ohio. My friends and I were in an abandoned warehouse in Pennsylvania playing airsoft. The owner came to the warehouse and spied on us for a while before calling the police. He thought we had actual weapons. The police came and we came out of the building when we saw they were there. We got a strong talk and the officer let us leave. We thought we were off the hook. Now, we have received fines in the mail of $216 each.

My question is that, were we trespassing? At the building there is an open gravel lot, with a driveway to the warehouse itself. The driveway is closed by a gate. We parked in the gravel lot and walked to the warehouse, not having to break through or anything. The warehouse had open entrances. What we did was not breaking and entering. There are no "No Trespassing" signs posted, only a "Beware of Dog" sign (there was no dog).

My parents are very upset with me and I want to know the law before I bend over and take a find I don't deserve.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Curt581]

.

My question is that, were we trespassing?

Did you own the property? -----> No.

Did you have the owner's permission to be there? -------> No.

Answer: You were trespassing.

 

[MHarris]

That's not the law in all states though. PA in particular.

http://members.aol.com/StatutesPA/18.Cp.35.html

I found that on PA's trespassing laws. I don't understand what it means. But I think I interpret it to say it's not trespassing unless you're told to leave and don't, or if it's breaking or entering.

Can anyone help me out with this?

 

[MHarris]

Did you own the property? -----> No.

Did you have the owner's permission to be there? -------> No.

Answer: You were trespassing.

And yes, I realized I was trespassing. I apologized to the owner, I was exceptionally polite to the police and him. And I think $200 dollars is a little steep for being in an abandoned building. Especially if I wasn't truly breaking the law.

 

[Curt581]

And yes, I realized I was trespassing. I apologized to the owner, I was exceptionally polite to the police and him. And I think $200 dollars is a little steep for being in an abandoned building. Especially if I wasn't truly breaking the law.

The building clearly wasn't "abandoned", since the owner was there. You just didn't see him until you got caught. He is not required to confront you. In fact, the police tell people NOT to confront trespassers, for their own safety.

You openly admit you knew you were trespassing.

Your understanding of the exact wording of the law is not an element of the offense.

Your opinion that the fine is excessive is not a defense.

 

[MHarris]

Well the definition of trespassing definitely comes into play. We did not break and enter. We left when we were told to. The law states regulations on occupied buildings. Not abandoned buildings. And I'm not saying I'm innocent, I'm just trying to better understand the law in case I'm being wrongly charged.

 

[Curt581]

Well the definition of trespassing definitely comes into play. We did not break and enter. We left when we were told to. The law states regulations on occupied buildings. Not abandoned buildings. And I'm not saying I'm innocent, I'm just trying to better understand the law in case I'm being wrongly charged.

The building wasn't abandoned. Real simple. I don't know how to make that easier to understand.

You don't have to "break and enter" to be charged with trespassing. You don't have to refuse to leave to be charged with trespassing. The fact that the building was poorly maintained doesn't mean its abandoned.

Tell you what... if you feel that strongly about it, refuse to accept any reductions offered when you go to court. Plead Not Guilty. Take this to trial. Play word games with the judge. Let him explain this stuff to you, since you obviously don't believe me.

You asked a question, I answered it. Do whatever you want. I couldn't care less.

 

[Ohiogal]

Well the definition of trespassing definitely comes into play. We did not break and enter. We left when we were told to. The law states regulations on occupied buildings. Not abandoned buildings. And I'm not saying I'm innocent, I'm just trying to better understand the law in case I'm being wrongly charged.

You are NOT being wrongly charged> You did break and enter quite frankly. You entered a building you had no business being in. If you had removed ANYTHING from it you could have been charged with burglary. You need to grow up little boy and stop playing games because your attitude will land you in prison.

 

[MHarris]

God forbid I ask about laws in a specific state. And I don't appreciate being called "little boy", very offensive. Good job bringing other things into this though. I asked because the law specifically mentions fences and no trespassing signs and whatnot. God, you guys are *******s.

Anyways, I'm just trying to protect myself here. I don't understand the law, so I came to a place where I thought people might. It just seems no one even tried to look at the specific link I provided to the trespassing laws in Pennsylvania. $200 is not a small fee for me, or my family for that matter in these times.

I was just playing airsoft with my friends, causing no trouble. I'm not a delinquent here. The owner told us people steal, do drugs, drink, vandalize, etc there and we're the ones who go down. It just doesn't seem justified to me.

 

[Ozark_Sophist]

So your neighbor leaves his garage door open and obviously that means you can play in his garage and house...

 

[MHarris]

So your neighbor leaves his garage door open and obviously that means you can play in his garage and house...

I just don't think the law should be circumstantial. Let's say my dog ran away and I chased him in the warehouse, what then? Am I going to get charged with trespassing? Probably not.

 

[CdwJava]

Here is the law:

3503. Criminal trespass.
(a) Buildings and occupied structures.--

A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he:
enters, gains entry by subterfuge or surreptitiously remains in any building or occupied structure or separately secured or occupied portion thereof; or
breaks into any building or occupied structure or separately secured or occupied portion thereof.

An offense under paragraph (1)(I) is a felony of the third degree, and an offense under paragraph (1)(ii) is a felony of the second degree.
As used in this subsection:

"Breaks into"
-- To gain entry by force, breaking, intimidation, unauthorized opening of locks, or through an opening not designed for human access.​

You knew you were neither licensed nor priveleged to be inside, and/or you forced entry. In either event, you were trespassing.

You may try to raise the legal defenses:

(c) Defenses.- It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:

(1) a building or occupied structure involved in an offense under subsection (a) of this section was abandoned;
(2) the premises were at the time open to members of the public and the actor complied with all lawful conditions imposed on access to or remaining in the premises; or
(3) the actor reasonably believed that the owner of the premises, or other person empowered to license access thereto, would have licensed him to enter or remain.​

But you will have to prove that a reasonable person would have believed the property to have been abandoned ... unless it was a run down hulk, this might be tough. The other two defenses certainly won't apply here.

Consuly local counsel if you intend to play legal definition games. I suspect, however, it shall be far cheaper to just pay the fine and move on.

- Carl

 

[The Occultist]

Just throwing this out there, but aren't "trespassing" and "breaking and entering" in fact two different crimes?

 

[Ohiogal]

Just throwing this out there, but aren't "trespassing" and "breaking and entering" in fact two different crimes?

Yep. but then again I am mean so what do I know?

 

[RealAmerican]

The law is not circumstantial. If you chased your dog into the property, you would leave when you caught the dog. You were on someone else's property, illegally with what looks like real guns. Face it, you broke the law and now you will pay the price. I think you may be to smart for your own good. Trust me, you don't half of what you think you do. Pay your fine and take it as a lesson learned. If you were talking to the officer the way you were talking to the posters on here I can see why you didn't get a warning.