Complicated Issue with Wife's Stepmother as Landlord

[kpweaver27]

(Indiana) Keeping the details to a minimum, we have been renting a home from my wife's stepmother that we intended to buy, but an inspection found the roof was end-of-life and she refused to repair it, so we bought a different home. She has become very upset at finding this out, and is now being extremely difficult and at times illegal as a landlord. Today she showed up with a realtor with no notice to take pictures of the property (and the realtor asked if we could clean up the home for them to show it, like I had any notice whatsoever). (Edit: she texted me a Monday to say she "might" be around on Thursday or Friday to do a few things, but mentioned nothing about what she would do or about bringing anyone.) She is coming by the house 2-3 times a week for repairs but she rarely does much of anything, it feels more as if she is snooping for one reason or another. Sometimes this is with notice, but mostly it is at best a very vague "I may be over." For our home purchase, we required a verification of rent form that she has not filled out yet, and may not.

1) I know filling out a VOR is not legally required, but is there any influence we can exert to get her to fill that form out? It would be nothing but pettiness if she does not.
2) Our rent is through the end of October, and it is currently July 30th. We owe rent to the end of October, no problem, but if we move out September 7th, would it be reasonable to offer the keys up 7 weeks early in exchange for some relief on October's rent? Same question for the dishwasher we bought, we don't really need it anymore, would it be reasonable to offer that back to her for a reduction of October rent?
3) She is claiming that texting me on a Monday and saying she may be around Thursday or Friday is sufficient notice. She didn't give a specific time, and also brought a realtor without telling us. Would these be considered violations?

 

[Zigner]

I would suggest that you suck it up and play nice. It will work out much better for you in the long run.

 

[Gail in Georgia]

"1) I know filling out a VOR is not legally required, but is there any influence we can exert to get her to fill that form out? It would be nothing but pettiness if she does not."

"Exert" on her won't work; in fact it would back fire. She's likely already upset with you regarding backing out of the deal to buy the place. Be nice to her is likely to get what you want.

"2) Our rent is through the end of October, and it is currently July 30th. We owe rent to the end of October, no problem, but if we move out September 7th, would it be reasonable to offer the keys up 7 weeks early in exchange for some relief on October's rent?"

No.

" Same question for the dishwasher we bought, we don't really need it anymore, would it be reasonable to offer that back to her for a reduction of October rent?"

Sure; except she doesn't need to accept this offer. Anything that a tenant adds to a rental that is "permanently" attached to the unit becomes part of the rental property. Unless this is a portable dishwasher that rolls over to a sink and plugs into a wall, it's been wired into the electrical system and becomes part of the property of the landlord at move out anyway. A dishwasher isn't like a refrigerator or a window air conditioner (for examples) that can simply be unplugged and removed.

"3) She is claiming that texting me on a Monday and saying she may be around Thursday or Friday is sufficient notice. She didn't give a specific time, and also brought a realtor without telling us. Would these be considered violations? "

No. Typically all that is required in a non-emergency situation (or to address a repair issue initiated by a tenant) is a 24 hour notice. No specific time need be provided; she also does not have to let you know that she is bringing a realtor with her. For showings of the property you need to be given notice and these need to be held at "reasonable" times of the day.

Gail

 

[kpweaver27]

Early Response

I feel like I needed to respond to a few early comments, not because the answers weren't what I wanted, but because the people responding so far have been somewhat confrontational. I have twice received advice to "be nice." I've genuinely been the nicest one in this situation, as I've been the middle man in family chaos. I've held my tongue and continue to do so, I don't want to provide ammo for a family feud. If anything, my niceness has created a situation wherein we've been taken advantage of.

With all due respect Gail it's hard to take most of what you said as decent advice because of the dishwasher comment, we could absolutely take that dishwasher with us, or give it away or whatever, it's not her property. Just because it is plumbed in, that means nothing. Why would we just give her the unit? We could at the very least sell it before we leave. Giving it to her for nothing is not an option at all, and is not reasonable advice. I'll consider the rest of it, but to be honest you come across as someone who is very anti-tenant because of that comment. We didn't back out of a deal to buy the house, she said she would fix the roof and never did (and btw is now selling the home as-is.)

Update: I contacted our local officials about notice to enter property and they said that she should give a time but doesn't have to, but that she cannot say she "may come by thursday or friday" as it is not definitive. They also said, Gail, that she does have to inform us she is bringing a realtor because part of the 24 hour notice is to say what she will be doing, i.e. fixing a sink, etc. If that thing involves a realtor taking photos, then I have to be informed of the reason she is coming.

Zigner--I assure you I have done nothing but play nice for a very long time, and have no intention on not continuing that. It just would seem that someone who is resisting signing a VOR and suddenly has become very petty and is showing up for nothing is the one who is not playing nice. Her "repair" today was to put bleach in the toilet, even as she was here yesterday as well to take pictures of the exterior.

Yes, we'll be out of this house soon, but dealing with these 2-3 times a week as she comes in for non-repairs is wearing on us, especially as she is confrontational when she is over. My wife told me she actually feels unsafe in her own home. I'm not saying it's at the point of police, though maybe it's a consideration, but having her show up at any time she wants is no way to live, even if it is for a month. I think that she feels like because she is my wife's stepmother, that a vague familial relation is carte blanche to show up whenever she wants.

 

[Zigner]

I feel like I needed to respond to a few early comments, not because the answers weren't what I wanted, but because the people responding so far have been somewhat confrontational. I have twice received advice to "be nice." I've genuinely been the nicest one in this situation, as I've been the middle man in family chaos. I've held my tongue and continue to do so, I don't want to provide ammo for a family feud. If anything, my niceness has created a situation wherein we've been taken advantage of.

With all due respect Gail it's hard to take most of what you said as decent advice because of the dishwasher comment, we could absolutely take that dishwasher with us, or give it away or whatever, it's not her property. Just because it is plumbed in, that means nothing. Why would we just give her the unit? We could at the very least sell it before we leave. Giving it to her for nothing is not an option at all, and is not reasonable advice. I'll consider the rest of it, but to be honest you come across as someone who is very anti-tenant because of that comment. We didn't back out of a deal to buy the house, she said she would fix the roof and never did (and btw is now selling the home as-is.)

Update: I contacted our local officials about notice to enter property and they said that she should give a time but doesn't have to, but that she cannot say she "may come by thursday or friday" as it is not definitive. They also said, Gail, that she does have to inform us she is bringing a realtor because part of the 24 hour notice is to say what she will be doing, i.e. fixing a sink, etc. If that thing involves a realtor taking photos, then I have to be informed of the reason she is coming.

Zigner--I assure you I have done nothing but play nice for a very long time, and have no intention on not continuing that. It just would seem that someone who is resisting signing a VOR and suddenly has become very petty and is showing up for nothing is the one who is not playing nice. Her "repair" today was to put bleach in the toilet, even as she was here yesterday as well to take pictures of the exterior.

Yes, we'll be out of this house soon, but dealing with these 2-3 times a week as she comes in for non-repairs is wearing on us, especially as she is confrontational when she is over. My wife told me she actually feels unsafe in her own home. I'm not saying it's at the point of police, though maybe it's a consideration, but having her show up at any time she wants is no way to live, even if it is for a month. I think that she feels like because she is my wife's stepmother, that a vague familial relation is carte blanche to show up whenever she wants.

Well, I guess you can just take your stand here then...

Why are you here again?

 

[LdiJ]

I feel like I needed to respond to a few early comments, not because the answers weren't what I wanted, but because the people responding so far have been somewhat confrontational. I have twice received advice to "be nice." I've genuinely been the nicest one in this situation, as I've been the middle man in family chaos. I've held my tongue and continue to do so, I don't want to provide ammo for a family feud. If anything, my niceness has created a situation wherein we've been taken advantage of.

With all due respect Gail it's hard to take most of what you said as decent advice because of the dishwasher comment, we could absolutely take that dishwasher with us, or give it away or whatever, it's not her property. Just because it is plumbed in, that means nothing. Why would we just give her the unit? We could at the very least sell it before we leave. Giving it to her for nothing is not an option at all, and is not reasonable advice. I'll consider the rest of it, but to be honest you come across as someone who is very anti-tenant because of that comment. We didn't back out of a deal to buy the house, she said she would fix the roof and never did (and btw is now selling the home as-is.)

Update: I contacted our local officials about notice to enter property and they said that she should give a time but doesn't have to, but that she cannot say she "may come by thursday or friday" as it is not definitive. They also said, Gail, that she does have to inform us she is bringing a realtor because part of the 24 hour notice is to say what she will be doing, i.e. fixing a sink, etc. If that thing involves a realtor taking photos, then I have to be informed of the reason she is coming.

Zigner--I assure you I have done nothing but play nice for a very long time, and have no intention on not continuing that. It just would seem that someone who is resisting signing a VOR and suddenly has become very petty and is showing up for nothing is the one who is not playing nice. Her "repair" today was to put bleach in the toilet, even as she was here yesterday as well to take pictures of the exterior.

Yes, we'll be out of this house soon, but dealing with these 2-3 times a week as she comes in for non-repairs is wearing on us, especially as she is confrontational when she is over. My wife told me she actually feels unsafe in her own home. I'm not saying it's at the point of police, though maybe it's a consideration, but having her show up at any time she wants is no way to live, even if it is for a month. I think that she feels like because she is my wife's stepmother, that a vague familial relation is carte blanche to show up whenever she wants.

You, unfortunately, are dead wrong about the dishwasher. She may not know that you are supposed to leave it but under the law, because its plumbed and electriced in it belongs to the house now and technically you are supposed to leave it. Gail wasn't giving you an opinion, she was telling you what the law states.

 

[kpweaver27]

You, unfortunately, are dead wrong about the dishwasher. She may not know that you are supposed to leave it but under the law, because its plumbed and electriced in it belongs to the house now and technically you are supposed to leave it. Gail wasn't giving you an opinion, she was telling you what the law states.

First of all, the best piece of advise I found on another site was that all I would have to do to be nice is have a dishwasher there, not mine. If I had the old one installed back in, that would be legit. I just don't know if it is worth the pain.

I understand your definition of fixtures and all of that, but the original question was more about if it was reasonable. I wasn't necessarily asking about the law on this matter, it was more about would a reasonable landlord accept something like that. (Of course, it has been my experience that an otherwise nice landlord will turn very mean once they believe the tenant is moving out, regardless of how amicable the situation was before.) It seems beyond reasonable, even if you're arguing the seemingly ridiculous, but understandable in some cases fixture definition. I can see we have a lot of hard and fast landlords here who are experienced with some jerk tenants, but I'm also dealing with a landlord who didn't acquire permits to do major electrical work on the house while we were living here and has shown up with vague notice or no notice at times. We aren't looking to go to litigation or anything. I'm not planning to be "this guy" but, if nothing else we could sell the dishwasher, because if she wants to pursue any kind of legal action, she'll rethink that when she realizes all of the illegal things she has done. All I was asking was if it was a reasonable thing to ask for in a home rental, and on this site I have gotten a few nos. I have found numerous examples of it happening and of it not happening, so its clearly reasonable. I see now that this site is mostly filled with people who have experience as landlords only, so I'll take that for what it is and move along, and just be glad I'll never have to deal with landlords ever again. Thanks for the feedback!

 

[Zigner]

I wasn't necessarily asking about the law on this matter...

So, you weren't looking for a legally accurate answer then...gotcha!

 

[LdiJ]

First of all, the best piece of advise I found on another site was that all I would have to do to be nice is have a dishwasher there, not mine. If I had the old one installed back in, that would be legit. I just don't know if it is worth the pain.

I understand your definition of fixtures and all of that, but the original question was more about if it was reasonable. I wasn't necessarily asking about the law on this matter, it was more about would a reasonable landlord accept something like that. (Of course, it has been my experience that an otherwise nice landlord will turn very mean once they believe the tenant is moving out, regardless of how amicable the situation was before.) It seems beyond reasonable, even if you're arguing the seemingly ridiculous, but understandable in some cases fixture definition. I can see we have a lot of hard and fast landlords here who are experienced with some jerk tenants, but I'm also dealing with a landlord who didn't acquire permits to do major electrical work on the house while we were living here and has shown up with vague notice or no notice at times. We aren't looking to go to litigation or anything. I'm not planning to be "this guy" but, if nothing else we could sell the dishwasher, because if she wants to pursue any kind of legal action, she'll rethink that when she realizes all of the illegal things she has done. All I was asking was if it was a reasonable thing to ask for in a home rental, and on this site I have gotten a few nos. I have found numerous examples of it happening and of it not happening, so its clearly reasonable. I see now that this site is mostly filled with people who have experience as landlords only, so I'll take that for what it is and move along, and just be glad I'll never have to deal with landlords ever again. Thanks for the feedback!

Then you have misunderstood the purpose of this site. It is not "full of landlords" in the way that you are defining that. This site is for legal advice. We might throw in some practical advice now and then if we see something that may be resolved with practical advice, but when we do, we disclaim it as practical advice rather than legal advice.

Now I am going to give you some practical advice. Whether she is right or whether she is wrong, stepmomma feels betrayed, by family, and maybe even feels taken advantage of if she thinks she has been renting to you at a better than fair market value. On top of that she thought she had a sale locked in and now is scrambling to figure out how to sell the home.

Instead of perhaps negotiating a lower price for the home instead of her repairing the roof, you just went and bought something else. That probably upsets her too.

Therefore, she is likely to simply follow the letter of the law with you unless she feels that there is a way to repair the damaged family relationships, and still come out ok in dealing with the house.

If you want to resolve a problem without going the "legal way" then you have to learn how to put yourself in the shoes of the other person, to understand how they are actually feeling (even if you don't think that they have the right to feel that way), in order to come up with a solution.