Deposit Kept to fix Something already 'fixed'!

[ShellraeG]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? AZ
My bathroom toilet had a leak. Called property manager to get it fixed (took several days) Then I had them back the next day even. Several months later the floor between the toilet and shower collapsed when I stepped out to throw some hair away--eww I know. Called property manager again, and once again several days went by before maintenance came and then several more before it was 'repaired' and then a couple more before property manager came to inspect and approve and take pics. (I lost my pics on my phone) Our lease expired on 7/31 with no renewal so we cleaned up and spent almost 4 days just deep cleaning all the angles and even the yard. (Got those pictures.) On August 19th by certified mail we got the 'remainder' of our deposit to which we were charged not only $100 for cleaning, but an additional $450 for the floor collapsing in the same bathroom. I can not find ANY literature on this subject, nor any similar type stories, nor any said laws persay, so now Im at an crossroads as to what I can or need to do. Can ANYONE tell me what I can or should do? What or where the rules are in AZ for this?

 

[justalayman]

what is the landlords basis for claiming you are liable for the damages of the floor collapsing?

 

[ShellraeG]

what is the landlords basis for claiming you are liable for the damages of the floor collapsing?

There was nothing but the estimate in the envelope with remaining deposit. I can photocopy it all for you if you'd like.

 

[justalayman]

not necessary.



I would send a letter disputing the damages. Send it certified mail.


they only basis I can think of where he would have a valid claim would be if the leak was obvious and you failed to report it in a timely manner or you did something to cause the leak. In such a situation you surely could be held liable for the damages. If you acted promptly when there was a leak, each and every time and you did nothing to cause the leak, I do not see how he can hold you liable for the floor.

 

[Gail in Georgia]

Perhaps the landlord believes the collapse of the bathroom floor was due to the tenants failing to adequately keep the water IN the tub during showering/bathing and that this is what damaged the floor; not the leaking toilet?

Or failing to report the leaking toilet for a extensive period of time (I once had a young tenant who handled the situation of a leaking toilet from a rusted tank bolt by shutting that bathroom door and only using the other bathroom; at move out the floor was damaged but luckily not to the point of collapse).

A floor actually collapsing would imply long term water damage.

At any rate if the OP disagrees with what was kept from their security deposit the first step is to typically write what is known as a "demand" letter, demanding what they believe they are fairly owed from their security deposit and giving the landlord/management a certain amount of time (say two weeks after they receive the letter) to remedy the situation.

If no success the next step is to consider a lawsuit over the matter. Such lawsuits are typically handled through Small Claims court as they involve relatively small amounts of money in dispute.

Gail

 

[ShellraeG]

Perhaps the landlord believes the collapse of the bathroom floor was due to the tenants failing to adequately keep the water IN the tub during showering/bathing and that this is what damaged the floor; not the leaking toilet?

Or failing to report the leaking toilet for a extensive period of time (I once had a young tenant who handled the situation of a leaking toilet from a rusted tank bolt by shutting that bathroom door and only using the other bathroom; at move out the floor was damaged but luckily not to the point of collapse).

A floor actually collapsing would imply long term water damage.

At any rate if the OP disagrees with what was kept from their security deposit the first step is to typically write what is known as a "demand" letter, demanding what they believe they are fairly owed from their security deposit and giving the landlord/management a certain amount of time (say two weeks after they receive the letter) to remedy the situation.

If no success the next step is to consider a lawsuit over the matter. Such lawsuits are typically handled through Small Claims court as they involve relatively small amounts of money in dispute.

Gail

I never noticed any leaks or excessive water on the floor until the city turned the water off in our grided area to be fixed underground. When they turned the water back on originally, the tank overflowed when anyone sat down, so I called immediately. Then after they 'fixed' it, the next time I used it I heard drips and called them back, they came and said things were fine. After the collapse, when the plumbers came, we asked specifically what could have caused the damage and he stated it had to be over a long period of time, and we had only been in there I believe less than a year. He just cut out a bigger hole in the floor, put a new piece (which to me didnt even look right) and then retiled it with linoleum tiles (which i thought was also dumb and it looked terrible!) but then the property manager came out a day or so later to take pics for the owners and said it looked good and gave the thumbs up. Anytime I sat on that toilet, I would hear drips, but wouldnt see any water and only used that toilet MAYBE a handful of times and always asked anyone else if they heard it or saw any water, which no one did, so I chalked it up to my weight being that issue (Im 300 lbs-ugh I know!) and mainly used my bathroom in the master. Now we asked to do a walkthrough with her the day before the keys were needed to be dropped off and she declined our request saying she'd do it on her own time, and since we thought the place looked immaculate and we took our own pics, we didnt trip out too much because so many other things were going on. Like I stated, I cant recall exact dates, my pictures from initial problem got lost on my phone, but I do have my other leassor and 2 other adult witnesses that can attest to problems, the fixing, and the final look of the place when we vacated. My main surprise was the same place that 'fixed' it was where the estimate to 'refix' it was from and that their work wasnt warrantied or guaranteed? She didnt express why now WE were responsible, because honestly, it was NOT neglect! We needed that deposit money back for our next move out of this place and we were very mindful of things for that very reason. I also read that we technically didnt have to do the landscaping which they ragged on us during a previous inspection AND we didnt get the deposit back until 19 days after instead of the 14 required by AZ law. Im seriously frazzled and we dont want to deposit the remaining deposit check until we totally confirm that it doesnt mean we are accepting it and any consequences of it, which urks me as well. I would really like to talk to someone who knows about this kind of stuff and doesnt try to charge me up the wazzooo! Im disabled and on a limited income and my bf who is my co-leassor makes a meager wage. I don't think any of this is fair and our rent was NEVER late, no complaints from any neighbors and our home wasnt or didnt look like a hoarders paradise or unkept. I thought we were good tenants <shrugs> Clearly, we didnt know our rights exactly, this was our first time renting in AZ.

 

[ShellraeG]

not necessary.



I would send a letter disputing the damages. Send it certified mail.


they only basis I can think of where he would have a valid claim would be if the leak was obvious and you failed to report it in a timely manner or you did something to cause the leak. In such a situation you surely could be held liable for the damages. If you acted promptly when there was a leak, each and every time and you did nothing to cause the leak, I do not see how he can hold you liable for the floor.

The leak was never obvious, I want to say it was either behind the wall or under the toilet directly. My grandkids, 3 & 4, were over while I babysat and the 4 yr old was potty trained so I made sure there was no water on the floor for them to play in or whatever. Also, we did NOT want to be responsible for anything so we jumped on things as soon as they happened or we were aware because we really needed the whole deposit back for our next move away from here. Without any dates, do you think the plumbers could give me that information on when they did things? Without I guess proof other than my one lil bathroom pic of the floor (not in the place it was collapsing) what do I say exactly?

 

[justalayman]

one thing I see that you appear to have a problem with:


even though this was fixed before your lease was over, if the landlord had a valid claim for compensation, he could either bill you at the time or retain the money from your security deposit. You made a couple statements that suggest you believe he could not charge you since he had already made the repair. That would be incorrect.



so, what I would suggest is sending a dispute as I suggested before seeking a return of the amount he withheld for the bathroom issue. Then go from there depending on his response.

 

[FarmerJ]

How old was the house ? does it appear that the bathroom was original to the house, was the toilet seated real firm so it never moved ? was there a gap on the side of the tub where the floor covering met the tub ? I ask those things because if the floor covering was in poor shape or say had a gap on one side then that would be one possible place where water had leaked in and over a long time destroyed the wood under it, toilet It is possible that even if the toilet felt like it was seated firmly that the wax ring between the flange in the floor for sewer pipe and the toilet itself had failed, ( ive had to tear out a floor where that was the issue , the wax ring was bad, toilet leak was tiny but had gone on for so long that the floor around the tub and toilet had to be torn out even though the house was maybe 35 to 38 yrs old (every room in that place was original ) anyway It sounds to me that you should just plan on suing them in small claims court.

 

[ShellraeG]

one thing I see that you appear to have a problem with:


even though this was fixed before your lease was over, if the landlord had a valid claim for compensation, he could either bill you at the time or retain the money from your security deposit. You made a couple statements that suggest you believe he could not charge you since he had already made the repair. That would be incorrect.



so, what I would suggest is sending a dispute as I suggested before seeking a return of the amount he withheld for the bathroom issue. Then go from there depending on his response.

So what Im hearing you tell me is that they CAN infact charge me for that damage EVEN though the plumber stated to us and them that it was long term damage gone unnoticed. That they didnt NEED to inform us they were using any of our deposit for these repairs, which gave us no option to get it repaired on our terms & cost, and now they can send an estimate with remaining deposits saying the company will charge $450 for repairing the collapsing floor (though to me it seems like its to repair it again) because the original work to me was underpar. I mean I couldnt even take a shower for 3 days while he had the toilet sitting in there, and there were no other showers.
Nor did she EVER say-state-print-anything to us saying WE were responsible or would be held as such. But I WILL work on a cert letter asking for that deposit back. and go from there. if you know of any specific documentation for either landlord/tenant stating this information for me to view myself, I would appreciate that! I didnt see anything specific to whats happening to me but did see how they could use it for damages from OUR missuse or neglect.

 

[justalayman]

ShellraeG;3351039]So what Im hearing you tell me is that they CAN infact charge me for that damage EVEN though the plumber stated to us and them that it was long term damage gone unnoticed.

they can charge you for the damages if they claim you caused the damage. If you need to sue to recover money held you do not believe was owed, you can use the plumber as a witness stating the damage is older than you were a tenant.

That they didnt NEED to inform us they were using any of our deposit for these repairs,

correct

which gave us no option to get it repaired on our terms & cost,

you do not have the right to have anything repaired. It is not your building.

and now they can send an estimate with remaining deposits saying the company will charge $450 for repairing the collapsing floor (though to me it seems like its to repair it again) because the original work to me was underpar. I mean I couldnt even take a shower for 3 days while he had the toilet sitting in there, and there were no other showers.

they can charge you for the cost to repair the damage whether it was done while you were a tenant or after you left.

Nor did she EVER say-state-print-anything to us saying WE were responsible or would be held as such.

did she say, state, print anything saying you were NOT responsible or would be held as such?

But I WILL work on a cert letter asking for that deposit back. and go from there. if you know of any specific documentation for either landlord/tenant stating this information for me to view myself, I would appreciate that! I didnt see anything specific to whats happening to me but did see how they could use it for damages from OUR missuse or neglect.

correct and the landlord is claiming (presumably) that it was your misuse or neglect that caused the damage.

 

[ShellraeG]

How old was the house ? does it appear that the bathroom was original to the house, was the toilet seated real firm so it never moved ? was there a gap on the side of the tub where the floor covering met the tub ? I ask those things because if the floor covering was in poor shape or say had a gap on one side then that would be one possible place where water had leaked in and over a long time destroyed the wood under it, toilet It is possible that even if the toilet felt like it was seated firmly that the wax ring between the flange in the floor for sewer pipe and the toilet itself had failed, ( ive had to tear out a floor where that was the issue , the wax ring was bad, toilet leak was tiny but had gone on for so long that the floor around the tub and toilet had to be torn out even though the house was maybe 35 to 38 yrs old (every room in that place was original ) anyway It sounds to me that you should just plan on suing them in small claims court.

The mobile home, was built in 1975. The kitchen appliances were new, washer & dryer, decades old, and everything else seemed outdated, including guest toilet that Im speaking of. The bathroom was very small so I couldnt see any actual work being done, and no clue if they fixed the toilet properly or the tank. Like I said on the other post, when I used the bathroom after the first sign of leaking, I always heard drips and I assumed it was my weight (about 300 lbs) that didnt agree with it so I used it only a handful of times in a year. No one else that used it, (my son & daughter, daughter-in-law, or bf) Ever heard it drip but my son said the tank seemed to lean a bit, so he put a 2x4 block behind it on his own and for his own piece of mind. The collapsed floor was between the toilet and standing shower stall, which was only about a foot appart or so, with not much room to necessarily stand, and looking back, Im sure no one did until I stepped out the one time to throw some hair away from the drain. The floor in front of the toilet & shower seemed solid, in front of the vanity and sink and even by the door which when opened leaned up against the toilet. (Yes small) I never noticed any water on the floor, we used mats and towels for after, no bathtub or overflows, and the plumber said the damage like that took a long time, and certainly wasnt only after a few months or even a year because it was rotted. So that put my mind at ease back when. I didnt agree with them reinstalling linolium tiles again over a patched hole but it wasnt my money and the property manager gave thumbs up for the look and repair. Never once stating we would be billed. I also assume contracted plumbers guarantee their work with some kind of warranty as well, so this also put my mind at ease, cuz why would they do substandard work and have it ding back on them sort of thing, and why wouldnt the owners pay for quality work so future problems like this would be in fact in the far off future? Thats what I get for assuming I suppose. We were good tenants who payed our rent on time, and when problems arose we were prompt on calling. I actually fixed both flushers on each toilet when they broke at the handle or the mechanics inside because Id done it before with no problems. I just dont understand how NOW they can send this estimate to fix the same issue that was fixed less than a year ago and make it OUR responsibility because of previous work not being proper?! or whatever the new issue actually is. The floor was intact when we left, there were no dents in the floor there but it did bow a bit and I 'assumed' that was because of how he cut out the bad wood and put in new instead of replacing the whole floor which couldnt have been larger than 6 x 4 (guessing) ugh
So very frustrated--I guess a cert letter and then small claims may be my best bet, I just wanted more documentation/information from anywhere to help me plead my case. Finding any has been a headache and finding anyone to talk to directly around here or who knows the rules/law has been a task as well. In my 45 yrs Ive NEVER dealt with anything like this! Never even heard of such a thing...so Im stumped

 

[ShellraeG]

they can charge you for the damages if they claim you caused the damage. If you need to sue to recover money held you do not believe was owed, you can use the plumber as a witness stating the damage is older than you were a tenant.


correct

you do not have the right to have anything repaired. It is not your building.

they can charge you for the cost to repair the damage whether it was done while you were a tenant or after you left.


did she say, state, print anything saying you were NOT responsible or would be held as such?

correct and the landlord is claiming (presumably) that it was your misuse or neglect that caused the damage.

I wanted GOOD news Justalayman!! So I guess the carport bolt that came out at the beginning of the year and when the wind blew it clanked up and down like it was gonna be ripped off, so we put in an actual written notice on April 1st, which they never took care of, meanwhile we used a brick with straps to hold it down, so the last day after taking our brick back, a crazy wind storm RIPPED the carport in half, knocking the security lights off, they can send us a bill for saying it was neglect on our parts too???? (Im glad that THAT hasnt happened yet-we reported that that happened also that last day by calling her like crazy and taking pics we texted her!-and that she 'swore' she sent someone out to fix!) Ugh

I appreciate your advice & info. I still dont think its just, on their part I mean, I dont even know how to prove it wasnt our neglect or even if those plumbers will give any testiment to this situation on my behalf. But I will forge on and try rather than rolling over and taking it...

 

[justalayman]

So I guess the carport bolt that came out at the beginning of the year and when the wind blew it clanked up and down like it was gonna be ripped off, so we put in an actual written notice on April 1st, which they never took care of, meanwhile we used a brick with straps to hold it down, so the last day after taking our brick back, a crazy wind storm RIPPED the carport in half, knocking the security lights off, they can send us a bill for saying it was neglect on our parts too????

actually, yes. You "repaired" the problem and then undid the repair. That makes any damages caused after you removed your repair your liability.

I appreciate your advice & info. I still dont think its just, on their part I mean, I dont even know how to prove it wasnt our neglect or even if those plumbers will give any testiment to this situation on my behalf. But I will forge on and try rather than rolling over and taking it.

you state the facts as you know them. You are doing decent here. The problem I see is you want to hear you will win for sure. I cannot say that but given what you have stated, I think you have a good shot at winning unless the landlord comes up with a reason you are responsible for the damages that is accepted by the court. The fact you only lived there a year and the plumbers statement that in his opinion the damage started well before then and your reports to the landlord any time you became aware of a problem; those are all good for your argument.

just start with disputing the retention of that part of your deposit and see how the landlord responds, Then if he refuses, then talk to the plumbers. You really want them to testify. Courts should not take affidavits but sometimes they will in small claims court so if the plumber will not testify on your behalf, see if he will write a statement and have it notarized. Make sure you pay for the notary.

 

[ShellraeG]

actually, yes. You "repaired" the problem and then undid the repair. That makes any damages caused after you removed your repair your liability.


you state the facts as you know them. You are doing decent here. The problem I see is you want to hear you will win for sure. I cannot say that but given what you have stated, I think you have a good shot at winning unless the landlord comes up with a reason you are responsible for the damages that is accepted by the court. The fact you only lived there a year and the plumbers statement that in his opinion the damage started well before then and your reports to the landlord any time you became aware of a problem; those are all good for your argument.

just start with disputing the retention of that part of your deposit and see how the landlord responds, Then if he refuses, then talk to the plumbers. You really want them to testify. Courts should not take affidavits but sometimes they will in small claims court so if the plumber will not testify on your behalf, see if he will write a statement and have it notarized. Make sure you pay for the notary.

Sounds like a good plan! Thanks again for taking the time. Yes I was looking for the WIN, but I know with everything its a bit more dramatic and complicated because there is always the other sides 'Side'! Still frustrating! lol