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  1. #1
    esquires01 is offline Junior Member
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    Sold my used car - now buyer is claiming that they want me to pay for repairs.

    New York State - (Private used car sales law)

    I sold a used car (is 15 years old with more than 110,000 miles on it) about a month and a half ago. The buyer came and inspected/ test drove the vehicle. They agreed to the price, and I setup the DTF-802 form, bill of sale, and title. They then gave me cash for the vehicle, and left with the vehicle.

    My father was the original title-holder for this vehicle. He signed all documents. On the bill of sale, we specifically stated that the vehicle was being sold as is/ no warranty. However, we didn't keep a copy of the bill of sale (we have an impression left by his handwriting in a notebook through).

    Several hours later, the buyer called me and stated that there was a noise coming from the motor. I simply stated that the car was in in good running condition at the time of sale, and it was sold as is. A couple of days later he sent me a text message stating that it would cost $1,000 to repair, and asked if I would help pay for it. I never responded to the text message.

    Now, my father is receiving a certified letter from a law firm at the address the vehicle was sold at (becuase he was the title-holder on the vehicle). We are having the letter sent back (my father does not reside in the residence the vehicle was sold at).

    Are we liable in any way to pay for repairs?

    How should I handle this certified letter from the law firm?
  2. #2
    latigo is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by esquires01 View Post
    New York State - (Private used car sales law)

    I sold a used car (is 15 years old with more than 110,000 miles on it) about a month and a half ago. The buyer came and inspected/ test drove the vehicle. They agreed to the price, and I setup the DTF-802 form, bill of sale, and title. They then gave me cash for the vehicle, and left with the vehicle.

    My father was the original title-holder for this vehicle. He signed all documents. On the bill of sale, we specifically stated that the vehicle was being sold as is/ no warranty. However, we didn't keep a copy of the bill of sale (we have an impression left by his handwriting in a notebook through).

    Several hours later, the buyer called me and stated that there was a noise coming from the motor. I simply stated that the car was in in good running condition at the time of sale, and it was sold as is. A couple of days later he sent me a text message stating that it would cost $1,000 to repair, and asked if I would help pay for it. I never responded to the text message.

    Now, my father is receiving a certified letter from a law firm at the address the vehicle was sold at (becuase he was the title-holder on the vehicle). We are having the letter sent back (my father does not reside in the residence the vehicle was sold at).

    Are we liable in any way to pay for repairs?

    How should I handle this certified letter from the law firm?
    This is not an uncommon occurence. But as you very well know the conditions of the sale were such that buyer has no cause of action (claim) against you or your father.

    Even if the buyer could prove that an express warranty as to the condition of the vehicle was breached, his only legal remedy would be to attempt to rescind the sale. Meaning he would have to return the vehicle and seek repayment of the price paid.

    In other words, he cannot keep the used vehicle and sue for needed repairs. To back out of the sale - assuming that he was legally entitled to, which he is not - he would need to restore each the seller and buyer to their status immediately prior to the purchase.

    Plus there is no implied warranty of fitness attached to the sale of used merchandise.

    Regarding the demand letter - it is nothing but a bluff. Tell dad to ignore it.
  3. #3
    tranquility is offline Senior Member
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    While I agree with latigo, there is another possibility. Did dad misrepresent anything? Not that he said it runs great, but, did he fill the crankcase with sawdust or anything? Did he take any act to disguise or temporarily fix any problems with the vehicle?
  4. #4
    esquires01 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
    While I agree with latigo, there is another possibility. Did dad misrepresent anything? Not that he said it runs great, but, did he fill the crankcase with sawdust or anything? Did he take any act to disguise or temporarily fix any problems with the vehicle?
    No I have been driving this car for years, and have never had any serious mechanical issue, and any issues have been professionally repaired.
  5. #5
    swalsh411 is offline Senior Member
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    FYI It is not illegal to conceal a defect in an AS-IS used car you are selling.
  6. #6
    tranquility is offline Senior Member
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    FYI It is not illegal to conceal a defect in an AS-IS used car you are selling.
    FYI, not only is it the tort of intentional misrepresentation, it is also the crime of fraud. Perhaps you MEANT to say:

    FYI It is not illegal to [not disclose] a defect in an AS-IS used car you are selling.
  7. #7
    latigo is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
    FYI, not only is it the tort of intentional misrepresentation, it is also the crime of fraud.
    I trust you did not expect that profound and highly questionable declaration to go unchallenged.

    If I’m not mistaken this transaction is said to have occurred in the state of New York.

    Then kindly direct our attention to any provision of that state’s Penal Laws wherein mere silence on the part of the seller of used goods – under any circumstances whatsoever and regardless of the state of the seller's knowledge - is an indictable crime – either criminal fraud or any other criminal offenses named and defined in those penal laws. Or any other federal or state statute.
    __________________

    I will mention that Title K of New York’s Penal Code or Laws addresses “OFFENSES INVOLVING FRAUD".

    However, it is to be noted that the only offenses listed under Title K that even approximate the subject at hand are Sections 190.60 and 190.65 each based upon “schemes to defraud” involving “conduct with the intent to defraud one or more people" by “false or fraudulent pretenses”.

    Now I personally find it difficult to understand how a person could be said to have engaged in a "systematic scheme" to defraud others of their property by "fraudulent representations and false pretenses" in the absence of any form of communication!
  8. #8
    Stevef is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proseguru View Post
    The OP should take action .. write a letter of complaint to the bar association .. the lawyer has just violated an ethical rule .. making a claim without legal basis
    What claim was that?
  9. #9
    Zigner is offline Senior Member
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    I think two different things are being talked about, but ya'll are saying the same thing:

    It is correct that the mere failure to mention a defect is not fraudulent, but it is also correct that if one attempts to hide a problem while claiming there is no problem, that is fraud.
  10. #10
    tranquility is offline Senior Member
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    I trust you did not expect that profound and highly questionable declaration to go unchallenged.

    If I’m not mistaken this transaction is said to have occurred in the state of New York.

    Then kindly direct our attention to any provision of that state’s Penal Laws wherein mere silence on the part of the seller of used goods – under any circumstances whatsoever and regardless of the state of the seller's knowledge - is an indictable crime – either criminal fraud or any other criminal offenses named and defined in those penal laws. Or any other federal or state statute

    Fraud would not be staying silent when you know there is a defect in the vehicle. I agree. If you actually follow the conversation rather than bloviate about your imagined straw man you will find there is a key difference between "not disclose" and "conceal".

    If I know there is a problem with the manual transmission in my very old vehicle being sold "as is" and say nothing, that would be a "not disclose" and then I would completely agree with your post. (As I already have.) HOWEVER, if I put sawdust in the transmission or otherwise took acts to disguise the problem and THEN said nothing, that would be, um, a "“schemes to defraud” involving “conduct with the intent to defraud one or more people" by “false or fraudulent pretenses”."

    But, I always feel nice when you take the time to notice me--even when you're not quite following the same conversation as everyone else.
    Last edited by m martin; 07-02-2012 at 03:45 PM.
  11. #11
    latigo is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zigner View Post
    I think two different things are being talked about, but ya'll are saying the same thing:

    It is correct that the mere failure to mention a defect is not fraudulent, but it is also correct that if one attempts to hide a problem while claiming there is no problem, that is fraud.
    Unquestionably circumstances can be such as to impose a duty upon the seller to speak truthfully. But this is in the realm of civil law. Not criminal law.

    Here, "so and so" – whose apparent insecurity is such when disputed she must resort to demeaning obscenities (absorbed in “flatulence” and “chewing fecal matter” being two examples of her despicable reactionary behavior). .

    Claims that the seller's failure to mention a known material defect in connection with the sale of used goods is in itself a CRIMINAL OFFENSE!

    . . . not only is (concealing a defect in an AS-IS used car sale) the tort of intentional misrepresentation, is also the crime of fraud.
    Although neither statement is legally supportable, I only asked for the citation of a statute, any statute, state or federal - making it a crime for a seller of used goods to fail to disclose a known defect in the goods.

    As of the present no such statute has been cited.
  12. #12
    tranquility is offline Senior Member
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    You really need to follow the conversation my dear. I'm not going to be able to help you with English over the internet.
  13. #13
    glovenltd is offline Junior Member
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    Repair

    They now want me to make a contribution to the repairs or they'll take it further.
  14. #14
    I'mTheFather is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by glovenltd View Post
    They now want me to make a contribution to the repairs or they'll take it further.
    Are you the OP under a different name? Or are you just that totally confused?
  15. #15
    You Are Guilty is offline Senior Member
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    No, its an idiot spammer trying to build up their post count. Why they haven't been deleted yet is beyond me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquility
    Once you get to crazy land, it is only a guess on how to get out.

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