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Libel / Defamation?

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MeatRo

Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Missouri

I am a website designer and I had a client with whom I recently terminated the account after I learned they were involved in unethical practices. Their market is loosely supervised and so I made a website that told about their business practices and took the website off of the server. I did this as an independent contractor with no conditions of their ownership of the website, its content or that I had to leave it online for any period of time, so I'm not worried about that.

I'm not really worried, more curious about what could happen to me for publishing a website that explained to the public basically what they were doing and why I believe potential clients of theirs should search elsewhere to do business.

Everything that I published is 100% truth and I provide perfectly logical explanations of how their business could not possibly operate ethically. I'm fairly certain that if a libel/defamation case were to be brought against me, the only thing they could do is sue me for whatever money they can prove they've lost as a result and/or to have me ordered to remove or retract anything I've published. If that's all they can do, then I would rather publish it and be sure that people know that they should not do business with this place.

If I post more content that is all true, would that lower the risk of a suit? Everything I want to publish is all truth and I can prove it. So if they find one minor thing that I cannot prove, would it mean that the one minor thing is less significant since there's even more that is proven?

A very strange moral predicament I've found myself in. But I just believe very strongly that this place should not be doing business in such an unethical and even inhumane way. And as I said, there's really nobody that I can report them to in order to stop them, I cannot call the police since it wouldn't even be a civil matter, I cannot call anybody to stop them; I can only remove their website and publish my reasons why I believe people should not do business.

Very strange indeed. Thank you.What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?
 


Proserpina

Senior Member
Even if they file a case without merit, the process of defending a defamation suit could bury you financially.

It could take years. And a LOT of money. Even if what you've written is true.

Are you willing to share a few more details as to what exactly is going on and what is involved? Obviously you don't need to share personal details.
 

MeatRo

Member
They are not super rich, so I'm sure they are not going to be spending tens of thousands of dollars on an attorney anyways. And they're not losing tons of money either.

Basically, I'm a web designer that sort of specializes in animal breeder websites. After speaking to a few people and seeing the premises for myself, I've since learned that this is a puppy mill and it's quite cruel, inhumane conditions and even goes against state laws. When I was there, they informed me of all types of unethical business practices they employ.. Such as posting animals to a website for which they use an automated system which is against the website's policy, I informed the website. They also told me that they will switch dogs on people if the dog has already sold, they will send the person a different dog and tell them it's the one they were looking at.

So I discontinued hosting of their website. Since I absolutely do not agree with that. I then posted what I'd learned on the internet.

Like I said, I would rather make sure that people do not get their puppies from this place as long as I'm not going to get sued for millions. Which I'm sure I won't, I looked into defamation/libel quite a while back and from what I remember, they have to prove everything they've lost as a result and that's what they can win. I'm not worried about spending tens of thousands on defending it either, with libel/defamation don't I simply have to prove what I said is true?
 

MeatRo

Member
We are in 2 different counties.

I learned today that they're in the process of filing a restraining order, which is kind of funny to me. I haven't been in contact since I let them know I would no longer be providing website services over the phone on Sunday. Everything was fine between us on Saturday, so I'm not sure on what grounds a restraining order is necessary. I have no reason to be in contact with them or visit their property.

:)
 

quincy

Senior Member
MeatRo, I believe the best thing for you to do is to eliminate yourself from the equation entirely, to avoid all risk of a lawsuit, and report this "puppy mill" to the Humane Society and to the ASPCA.

Both of these organizations will actively investigate any animal business that is reported to operate under unsanitary and inhumane conditions. These organizations are not shy about pointing out publicly those businesses that harm animals and they will work actively to rescue the animals and close these businesses down. And, should a business sue them for defamation, these organizations have the money to support the often high expense of defending against a suit, and experienced legal teams to support the handling of the matter in court.

One note: Someone or some entity defamed can be awarded more in damages than just what is shown as out-of-pocket money loss. Damages awarded can also be for any impairment of reputation in the community. These awards are based on the facts of the case and determined by a jury. The damages awarded for reputational injury to a business can be high.
 
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MeatRo

Member
None of those organizations actually do anything.

So I can be sued for posting stuff that any person can verify as true? Because I've consulted with attorneys regarding libel/defamation before and the main thing they stressed was that we had to prove that what was being posted was not true.
 

quincy

Senior Member
I am surprised by your first statement. That has not been my experience with those organizations. They will do a thorough investigation of a business, however, before leveling any charges against the business, as this is the legally sound way to operate.

At any rate, if all of what you publish is provably true, then you will not lose any defamation action filed against you. Trying to prove a business has "unethical" business practices, however, may be a challenge for you. And this business could also potentially sue you, not only for defamation, but for tortious interference.

Nothing you do, short of not publishing anything at all about this company, will prevent them from filing suit against you, should they be intent on doing so. A case with no merit will be shown to have no merit in court - but that does not eliminate the costs you must incur to get to that point.

It is, in the end, up to you to decide what you want to do with the information you have gathered on this business. I recommend if you do decide to plunge ahead and devote a website to their operations that you have an attorney review what you plan to publish prior to publication, this to minimize your risks of any suit arising from your publication.

As a note, having a restraining order issued against you by this business does not work in your favor, should any lawsuit be filed against you and it reaches the court level. Be well prepared with legitimate reasons why such an order should not be issued against you, when you appear in court on the RO.

You certainly have had difficulties being in the puppy business, haven't you? Geez. But I wish you good luck with whatever it is you decide to do with this latest animal challenge.
 
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MeatRo

Member
Well my last issue was trying to defend a breeder against false statements about their kennels on the internet.

This is defending myself against true statements about their kennels on the internet.

I have been extremely cautious about preparing the content, specifically because of the libel/defamation research I have done in the past. There are no false claims, no assumptions, nothing left for the person to conclude. Everything I have is 100% provably true, here is basically what I have:

1.) That the dogs are not released from their cages. I can explain this logically right here: They have nearly 100 dogs and an unfenced property, releasing 100 dogs would be chaos.. Even releasing 10-20 dogs at a time. I also have 3-4 people who have spent months working for this person who have told me they have no problem verifying this for the courts.

2.) They used automated methods to increase sales via a specific website, which goes against that website's TOS. I reported this to the website and they informed me that they had suspected them of this for quite some time and thanked me for the information. I also HAVE the automated system used, can point out its origins which are publicly available on the internet via an outsourced programming website.

3.) That their health guarantee was recently extended for the sole reason to lock clients into 5 years of dog vitamin commissions. The author of the guarantee is willing to verify this claim.

4.) The person regularly dodges state licensing inspectors. This is obvious simply by requesting from the state dept. of agriculture anything the person has been written up for, there are several instances of not being available during business hours. There are also USDA documents on the internet with the same write ups. There are also 2-3 of their past employees who have told me that they have been sent out to tell the inspectors that the breeder was not available and are also willing to verify this.

5.) This person breeds dogs on a large scale. I did not call this person a "puppy mill" but this is provable simply by visiting the breeder's website (in my possession) and looking at the birth dates of the dogs. There are several instances of 4-5 litters being born in less than a week.

Does the HSUS/PETA investigate individuals like this? It's been my understanding that they mostly go after larger places like stores, brokers and chains.

Thanks, Quincy. :)
 

quincy

Senior Member
Website terms of service violations, the extension of health guarantees to increase sales of vitamin supplements, no inspection reports (for whatever reason), 4 or 5 litters being born in a week's time - aw, geez, MeatRo. This does not seem to me to be real good evidence of unethical business practices.

And relying on future testimony from current employees, who risk losing their jobs if they "rat out" their employer. . . .well, that is not something I would want to risk basing my defamation defense on. And past employees may be shown to have an "axe to grind."

I would have an attorney in your area review EXACTLY what you have currently on hand to support any statements that the business is inhumanely treating the animals residing there and that their business practices are different than any other business trying to increase sales.

I am certainly, by no stretch of the imagination, fond of puppy mills. The Humane Societies in my area have rescued several puppies that have been bred in such places in recent months and they have worked with the states in question to close these businesses down. I have adopted one of the rescued puppies.

But I am not seeing what you are seeing here. I would be very leery of posting anything against this business on the internet without far more proof than what you are describing you have here.

Again, speak with a local attorney and go over all of the facts. I think your bank account and all of your assets will thank you if you do this prior to publishing any derogatory or potentially defamatory information about this business online.
 
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MeatRo

Member
These are merely the stories that I have proof of. I can tell you all kinds of horror stories about this breeder and their employees have told me even worse. I will not get into details, but many dogs are sick, dogs die on a regular basis and they've even told me that the person will switch dogs on clients if the dog the client was interested in is already sold.

I will not tell these stories because I cannot say, "look at this piece of paper right here which proves this." That's the only reason. I think you've missed my point.

This is not an issue of, "I think violating a TOS, getting commissions, etc should constitute you looking for another breeder." This is an issue of clients are being scammed, dogs are being killed (the employees have also all told me that very recently, 18 puppies from different litters all died just a couple weeks ago from parasites and viruses) and the place is obviously a puppy mill, but I cannot say those things because I will be sued for $100M. You can find tons of reports filed online from clients about this place, including sick dogs, being sold mutts, dead dogs, it's sick.

They are also not current employees. They are all past employees with no relationship to each other (some don't even know each other) that I have spoken to separately and have all verified what I'm saying, including the things I will not write about, and have all told me that they would be happy to verify my claims in court. I am also not banking on them, everything I have is ON PAPER, from government entities, inspectors, licensing agencies, third party web server logs, etc.

I apologize if it appears there's some attitude here, that is not my intentions. I just very strongly believe puppy mills should NOT be doing business and these are the only things I can prove.. On paper are true, beyond any shadow of a doubt. I have done websites for several breeders and I refuse to be support a puppy mill or just stand around knowing that there are almost 100 dogs that are being housed like this and used for this.

Like I said, if you want to sue me for this... That sounds like a better option than providing sick dogs, nearly dead dogs, scamming clients, lying to clients, etc. Places like this should not be in business.
 
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quincy

Senior Member
I do not see any "attitude," MeatRo. I see someone who cares about animals, as I do.

BUT, until you have those pieces of paper that say "look right here, this proves it," you risk being sued by the dog breeder if you try to steer people away from this business due to your unsupported claims of unethical business practices and the inhumane treatment of animals.

Proof that the business violated a website's terms of service is probably not enough to make people want to look elsewhere for a puppy, but if that is all you have solid proof of, that should be the extent of what you write about the business online.

I now suggest, in addition to my earlier advice to see an attorney in your area, that you get sworn statements NOW from each of the employees (past and/or present) who can and will testify to the conditions of the animals under the care of this breeder. Once you have these in hand, contact the Humane Society and the ASPCA, and then write out, if you want to, what you have about the business that can be supported with your greater evidence. Then have what you wrote reviewed by an attorney in your area prior to publication.

But I strongly recommend that you consult with an attorney in your area, so you are guided in the right direction, as far away from any possible lawsuit as you can realistically get.

Once again, good luck.
 
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MeatRo

Member
Thank you very much, Quincy.

But as I said, I have concrete proof of everything I said, anything that I do not have 100% verifiable proof either by their employees, government documents publicly available on the internet or third part server logs which nobody aside from the hosting company has access to modify in anybody's favor IN MY POSSESSION CURRENTLY, I am not even considering.

I am not thinking about calling them an abuser of animals, a puppy mill, a puppy killer, a thief or anything because I do not have anything supporting those statements aside from hearsay.

Once again, thank you very much, Quincy. If you were a girl, I'd send you a bouquet. Being a guy, I would send you a 12 pack, but this is a legal forum and that sounds like a bad idea. :)
 

quincy

Senior Member
Uh, hey! A 12-pack does not sound like a bad idea to me at all. Plus, my advice here is bound to be more interesting after I've imbibed a few. ;) :D

I do understand, MeatRo, how hard it must be for you to know that this breeder is operating his business contrary to the health and safety of the puppies under his care, and not do something about it. You just have to be very very careful when writing anything derogatory or potentially defamatory about an individual or a business, especially online.

The impact a story on the internet can have is substantial. Stories that contain derogatory or defamatory statements about an identified or identifiable person or business attract lawsuits. Any statements made in a story that cannot sufficiently be proved true can lead to a likewise substantial award of damages against the author of the story, should a lawsuit be filed.

Again, my recommendations are to try to get together more solid proof of the conditions at this breeder's place of business, contact and consult with both the Humane Society and the ASPCA (or any other animal rights organizations that may be in your area) and consult with an attorney before publishing anything about the business.

I wish you luck.
 
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MeatRo

Member
I will update this to let you know how it works out, Quincy. So far I've contacted a couple of attorneys and consulted with one who told me that they'd also contacted them and they wouldn't help based on what the person told them.

They were very helpful with me and basically told me exactly what I wanted to hear, which was don't be scared of them. The law is the law and no matter what attorney they go with, they will be subject to the same laws as me. As long as I can prove what I write is true then to write it and do not go beyond that. (They actually told me that they would have had it online already.)

I will consult with one here in a couple of days to review the content and show them what I have as far as proof to see whether or not it should be posted.

Thanks again, Quincy.
 

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