Public Recorded conversation at Starbucks in California

[CdwJava]

This not just a civil case. That's why the police are investigating as well as we have a lawyer.

What could possibly be criminal about someone making derogatory comments about a 5-year-old???? Absent a credible threat against the safety of the 5 year old, it is not a crime to bad mouth anyone - including a young child.

You are either leaving A LOT of info out of this story, or you are over-estimating any interest or involvement of the police.

 

[EV151]

I already stated that I am not saying everything on the forum. I don't feel it would be right to explain everything about what is going on in here. I just had a question that I asked and I received my answer on that question. I did state that there are serious false accusations on my daughter. They are completely false.

 

[CdwJava]

I already stated that I am not saying everything on the forum. I don't feel it would be right to explain everything about what is going on in here. I just had a question that I asked and I received my answer on that question. I did state that there are serious false accusations on my daughter. They are completely false.

And, in spite of what someone may have led you to believe, this is NOT a criminal matter so the police will NOT be investigating this as a crime. At most, they might contact the other party and ask that she knock off the conversation so as to keep the peace. But, if she kept on bad-mouthing your child, there would be NOTHING they could do about it.

Of course, if you have the money and the inclination, you should have no problem finding an attorney who would be willing to accept your money to write a toothless "cease and desist" order. But, a lawsuit? Highly unlikely ... highly.

 

[eerelations]

OP I don't understand how you could be so uncomfortable providing details about the alleged slander here in the relative anonymity of this forum, yet at the same time perfectly comfortable telling all in open (i.e., public) court, with news media present. This simply doesn't make sense.

 

[quincy]

What could possibly be criminal about someone making derogatory comments about a 5-year-old???? Absent a credible threat against the safety of the 5 year old, it is not a crime to bad mouth anyone - including a young child.

You are either leaving A LOT of info out of this story, or you are over-estimating any interest or involvement of the police.

Carl, if someone were to say that a child (of any age) set a cat on fire, or molested other children at a day care, these comments would be defamatory if false and would also lead to a police investigation to determine the truth or falsity of the claims. Comments like this could easily affect the reputation of a child (of any age).

That said, there has been no indication given that the statements made about the five-year-old by the adult comes close to statements of this sort and, if the statements were of this nature, a report would have been made to the police and the police would have been involved from the beginning. So I suspect, as you do, that there is nothing in what has been related to us EV151 that shows a crime or defamation has in fact occurred.

All I can say is that the possibility exists, based on what has NOT been told to us.

So, yes, it can be both a crime and defamation to "bad mouth" a person, depending on ALL facts.

 

[CdwJava]

Carl, if someone were to say that a child (of any age) set a cat on fire, or molested other children at a day care, these comments would be defamatory if false and would also lead to a police investigation to determine the truth or falsity of the claims. Comments like this could easily affect the reputation of a child (of any age).

Fine, but to be actionable there would have to be damages. Taking such a claim to court would be expensive and without any strong likelihood of success.

And, as you note, the OP has not alleged that the rumors involve any allegations of criminal activity only that the person has said some bad things about the child (note that under CA law they could almost certainly never prosecute a 5-year-old for those offenses as a matter of law).

Now, IF such things were alleged, the 5 year old might be under investigation by the police, but not the person making the claim.

So, yes, it can be both a crime and defamation to "bad mouth" a person, depending on ALL facts.

Given the experience I have had with people, I suspect that the OP may believe - as others do - that saying untruths about others is criminal. I have heard many people make such claims and call the police alleging a "crime" when people are talking about them or their family, so I would not be surprised if the OP thought that it could be. Heck, I've had people demand to arrest a neighbor for looking at them in a mean way or flipping them off! I have also heard officers tell people "We'll look into it," as a means to withdraw and get out of the situation without any intent of acting any further on it because it's not a crime.

 

[quincy]

Fine, but to be actionable there would have to be damages. Taking such a claim to court would be expensive and without any strong likelihood of success.

And, as you note, the OP has not alleged that the rumors involve any allegations of criminal activity only that the person has said some bad things about the child (note that under CA law they could almost certainly never prosecute a 5-year-old for those offenses as a matter of law).

Now, IF such things were alleged, the 5 year old might be under investigation by the police, but not the person making the claim.


Given the experience I have had with people, I suspect that the OP may believe - as others do - that saying untruths about others is criminal. I have heard many people make such claims and call the police alleging a "crime" when people are talking about them or their family, so I would not be surprised if the OP thought that it could be. Heck, I've had people demand to arrest a neighbor for looking at them in a mean way or flipping them off! I have also heard officers tell people "We'll look into it," as a means to withdraw and get out of the situation without any intent of acting any further on it because it's not a crime.

This has become one of the most difficult sites on the internet to post to - I compose posts and submit them and they somehow disappear. I will try again.

What many people do not seem to understand about defamation "damages" is that there does not have to be a financial injury for damages to be awarded. A person defamed can be compensated for mental anguish, emotional distress, shunning, ridicule ... even when there has been no economic loss at all.

As a note, I am looking at the five-year-old child described in this thread as if the child has actually been defamed by the comments made by the adult (ie, false statements were made about the child and published to others). It would not be the child, in that case, who would be prosecuted for a crime because the child was only falsely accused of a crime (if that is what this is all about), but rather it would be the adult who could face prosecution (for example, for filing a false police report, bullying, harassment, whatever).

Admittedly, this is a stretch based only on what has not been related to us and based only on EV151's insistence that there is a problem for which a legal solution exists.

I agree that many people seem to THINK that there is a legal solution to all of life's problems and, of course, that is far from the truth. Sometimes barking dogs and pieces of plastic found in a fast-food hamburger and a trip/fall and bad-mouthing are just some of life's irritants that one must shrug off. It could be because of the number of attorneys in this country, or it could be because of the number of "free legal advice" sites that one finds on the internet that provide erroneous information, or it could be because of the media - but whatever the case, people often seem to threaten a lawsuit and police intervention when there is no clear justification for either.

However, on this site, and because we are provided with only one side of a situation and rarely provided enough facts to base a definitive answer on, I tend to suggest a personal review by an attorney in the poster's area. I would hate to deter someone from seeking legal assistance when there could be a legitimate cause of action for which relief can be granted. On the other hand, I understand that it is generally smartest to find a NON legal solution to a problem when such a solution exists.

 

[Zigner]

This has become one of the most difficult sites on the internet to post to - I compose posts and submit them and they somehow disappear. I will try again.

I would suggest that, before hitting "submit", you should highlight and copy all your text. Then, if it disappears, you still have it in your clipboard

 

[EV151]

Carl, if someone were to say that a child (of any age) set a cat on fire, or molested other children at a day care, these comments would be defamatory if false and would also lead to a police investigation to determine the truth or falsity of the claims. Comments like this could easily affect the reputation of a child (of any age).

Exactly. I don't feel comfortable posting on an online forum about the whole issue. But it is as bad if not worse than the examples given. The police officer already spoke with my daughter and agrees there is no way that she could have done what was said. He will be investigating the other 5 year old because he is concerned how a 5 year old would even come up with the story she has told.

The defamation is because my daughter was kicked out of a city activity due to the false things that the other mother is saying. Even though there never was a case to get my daughter kicked out for. The director of the activity made threats to my daughter if she remained in the activity.

That said, there has been no indication given that the statements made about the five-year-old by the adult comes close to statements of this sort and, if the statements were of this nature, a report would have been made to the police and the police would have been involved from the beginning. So I suspect, as you do, that there is nothing in what has been related to us EV151 that shows a crime or defamation has in fact occurred.

All I can say is that the possibility exists, based on what has NOT been told to us.

So, yes, it can be both a crime and defamation to "bad mouth" a person, depending on ALL facts.

It is both.

 

[quincy]

I would suggest that, before hitting "submit", you should highlight and copy all your text. Then, if it disappears, you still have it in your clipboard

Thanks, Zigner. I have not had to do that in the past because it has not been an issue in the past. This message, however, is nicely preserved in case it, too, disappears upon submission (not that the following message is worth preserving in any form).

I suspect the problem has something to do with the recent security updates to our computers - but I only experience problems on this site, so who knows. . . . .

EV151, if all is as you say, it is good that you have spoken to an attorney in your area and that the police are investigating. Your attorney can let you know if there is any legal action of any kind worth the time and expense of pursuing, and the police will handle any criminal action. It is sad that your young daughter has become the target of false accusations.

 

[CdwJava]

What many people do not seem to understand about defamation "damages" is that there does not have to be a financial injury for damages to be awarded. A person defamed can be compensated for mental anguish, emotional distress, shunning, ridicule ... even when there has been no economic loss at all.

I understand that, but, a 5-year-old is unlikely to suffer from such ridicule in such a way that an award is even remotely likely. And, it would cost many thousands of dollars even to roll those dice.

It would not be the child, in that case, who would be prosecuted for a crime because the child was only falsely accused of a crime (if that is what this is all about), but rather it would be the adult who could face prosecution (for example, for filing a false police report, bullying, harassment, whatever).

There has been no mention that the other party has reported the child to the police for a crime. And making a report to the police that turns out to be incorrect is NOT criminal, and generally not going to involve a civil claim, either.

but whatever the case, people often seem to threaten a lawsuit and police intervention when there is no clear justification for either.

Yep. Hardly a day goes by that we don't get at least one call where we are expected to correct boorish - but legal - behavior.

However, on this site, and because we are provided with only one side of a situation and rarely provided enough facts to base a definitive answer on, I tend to suggest a personal review by an attorney in the poster's area. I would hate to deter someone from seeking legal assistance when there could be a legitimate cause of action for which relief can be granted. On the other hand, I understand that it is generally smartest to find a NON legal solution to a problem when such a solution exists.

However, if we have to make up a whole lot of unlikely suppositions to create a scenario that might include a crime or a tort, are we doing the OP any favors? From what the OP has written, there appears to be nothing here but the questionable tongue-wagging of another adult - we don't know what is being said and the OP refuses to provide even a broad inference of the nature of the comments.

So, I return to my original suggestion which is to speak to an attorney to evaluate the case or to write a C&D letter to try and stop the tongue-wagging. But, if she seeks to use the courts or the police to stop this, I think she is operating under a false impression of what he legal system can do for her in such a situation.

 

[CdwJava]

Exactly. I don't feel comfortable posting on an online forum about the whole issue. But it is as bad if not worse than the examples given. The police officer already spoke with my daughter and agrees there is no way that she could have done what was said. He will be investigating the other 5 year old because he is concerned how a 5 year old would even come up with the story she has told.

First off, a 5-year-old cannot commit a crime in CA. All the police will do here is talk to the kids involved and maybe attempt to get the parents to have the kids stop talking. They really won't be spending a lot of time on this. Really.

I have spent most of my career working juvenile crimes and dealing with issues just like this, and absent some link to a parent that might be molesting or abusing one of the children, this is going nowhere with the police.

The defamation is because my daughter was kicked out of a city activity due to the false things that the other mother is saying. Even though there never was a case to get my daughter kicked out for. The director of the activity made threats to my daughter if she remained in the activity.

Fine, consult an attorney and find out how many thousands of dollars it will cost to simply bring this to court. I suspect you will not find any attorneys willing to pursue it, but, if you have the money, there's probably an attorney that will be willing to spend it.

 

[quincy]

I understand that, but, a 5-year-old is unlikely to suffer from such ridicule in such a way that an award is even remotely likely. And, it would cost many thousands of dollars even to roll those dice.

There has been no mention that the other party has reported the child to the police for a crime. And making a report to the police that turns out to be incorrect is NOT criminal, and generally not going to involve a civil claim, either.

Yep. Hardly a day goes by that we don't get at least one call where we are expected to correct boorish - but legal - behavior.

However, if we have to make up a whole lot of unlikely suppositions to create a scenario that might include a crime or a tort, are we doing the OP any favors? From what the OP has written, there appears to be nothing here but the questionable tongue-wagging of another adult - we don't know what is being said and the OP refuses to provide even a broad inference of the nature of the comments.

So, I return to my original suggestion which is to speak to an attorney to evaluate the case or to write a C&D letter to try and stop the tongue-wagging. But, if she seeks to use the courts or the police to stop this, I think she is operating under a false impression of what he legal system can do for her in such a situation.

EV151 gave an indication of the nature of the comments and also indicates that there were threats made by the adult. All we can do is go on what EV151 has decided to disclose to us and it is because we know so little of what is going on that I think we do no favors by dismissing out of hand all possibility of legal recourse.

I agree with you that an evaluation of the facts by an attorney in EV151's area can be smart - and it appears that is what EV151 is doing.

 

[CdwJava]

As a note, most "threats" are not criminal matters. I haven't seen anything written that indicates a crime was committed ... aside from the OP potentially making a recording that may well have violated state law.

 

[quincy]

As a note, most "threats" are not criminal matters. I haven't seen anything written that indicates a crime was committed ... aside from the OP potentially making a recording that may well have violated state law.

... and the legality of recording a conversation in California was the reason for the thread. That question was nicely addressed.

However, I am definitely looking at the later posts in this thread differently than you are, CdwJava. I am seeing a five-year-old who may have been harmed by defamatory comments, and I am seeing a parent who is understandably upset by it. There are far too many recent incidents of bullying (and defaming) of children, by both other children and by adults who should know better, to discount EV151's concern and possible legal remedies.