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Public Recorded conversation at Starbucks in California

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CdwJava

Senior Member
And I have seen far too many people OVER reacting to such concerns and statements and resorting to the possibility of legal action (that is usually out of reach) rather than taking a different path.

I don't see any actionable harm from any comments, nor do we know whether the comments caused the response by the recreation department, or whether it was actions by the child or her parent(s) that caused the reaction.

I can understand being upset. But, rarely is the legal system going to offer any remedy for rude behavior or adults running their mouths.
 


quincy

Senior Member
And I have seen far too many people OVER reacting to such concerns and statements and resorting to the possibility of legal action (that is usually out of reach) rather than taking a different path.

I don't see any actionable harm from any comments, nor do we know whether the comments caused the response by the recreation department, or whether it was actions by the child or her parent(s) that caused the reaction.

I can understand being upset. But, rarely is the legal system going to offer any remedy for rude behavior or adults running their mouths.
And herein lies our difference, Carl. It is a difference in our experiences and our perceptions.

You do not see any actionable harm in what has been described and I see that there COULD BE actionable harm in what has been described.

You are seeing what has been described as merely "rude behavior" and "adults running their mouths" (which, admittedly, is how I saw it originally) and I see one adult who has apparently threatened a child after another adult apparently leveled false and potentially defamatory accusations against the child, resulting in the child being kicked out of a city activity.

If it were falsely said by an adult of your child that your child set a cat on fire, for example, and this resulted in your child being wrongly kicked off a city baseball team, there is an adult behind the false accusations that should be held accountable for the harm that has been caused to your child.

False accusations have a way of following a person, which is what reputational injury is all about. The damage caused is not from just the one incident but what comes after that one incident. The harm can be as great to a child (maybe greater) as it can be to an adult.

Of course it all depends on all of the facts, and we do not have all the facts. We both agree that the facts as given can be worth, at the very least, an attorney's review - and EV151 can determine better after this review whether the adult at the center of the false statements can be held accountable, whatever "held accountable" may mean. Perhaps the attorney after review will advise EV151 to shrug it off as "rude behavior and an adult running his mouth." That is definitely a possibility and one that EV151 should be prepared to hear.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
But, the method to hold the person accountable is unlikely to be in a civil court, and almost certainly not in a criminal court. The procedure to appeal a suspension from a recreation team is through the administration of the department or league, not the court. I don't see anyone willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars on an issue of a 5-year-old being talked about by another parent ... especially when there is no guarantee that the comments are wrong, false, or malicious. Yes, an attorney will likely take a few bucks to write a cease and desist letter, and maybe a couple thousand dollars for a retainer to examine the issue. But, a lawsuit? Really? Not out here - not for this. And a criminal case? Not at all ... unless there is a LOT missing from the story.

While one might want big brother to swat the mighty motor mouth with the big stick of government power, that simply is not likely to happen here. It's unrealistic to assume that this is going to be anything more than one or both sets of parents acting like children.
 

quincy

Senior Member
But, the method to hold the person accountable is unlikely to be in a civil court, and almost certainly not in a criminal court. The procedure to appeal a suspension from a recreation team is through the administration of the department or league, not the court. I don't see anyone willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars on an issue of a 5-year-old being talked about by another parent ... especially when there is no guarantee that the comments are wrong, false, or malicious. Yes, an attorney will likely take a few bucks to write a cease and desist letter, and maybe a couple thousand dollars for a retainer to examine the issue. But, a lawsuit? Really? Not out here - not for this. And a criminal case? Not at all ... unless there is a LOT missing from the story.

While one might want big brother to swat the mighty motor mouth with the big stick of government power, that simply is not likely to happen here. It's unrealistic to assume that this is going to be anything more than one or both sets of parents acting like children.
This appears to be more than a suspension from a recreation team, Carl. If it were only a suspension, you are right that the procedure would be an administrative appeal. But the suspension described by EV151 was initiated as a result of potentially defamatory statements being leveled against one of the young participants in the activity. The suspension can be looked at as evidence of reputational injury suffered as a result of false statements communicated by an adult about a child to the director of the activity, who in turn "threatened" the child.

Reinstating the five year old could certainly be a remedy considered, as could a retraction of the statements and a public apology.

There is definitely a gap in the laws that currently exist. The bullying laws that have been enacted in most states tend to limit recourse to school-related offenses. In other words, they do not go quite far enough. Defamation laws, perhaps, go too far. It has been a combination of these laws, however, that students have had to use (along with intentional infliction of emotional distress) to legally address the harm that has resulted from false and injurious statements made about them by others.

Although most of the cases that have made it as far as a defamation lawsuit, and publicized, have involved children at least eight years senior the age of EV151's daughter, and have additionally involved online defamation (see Synder v Blue Mountain School District; Layshock v Hermitage School; and the Kara Kowalski and the Alex Boston suits to name a few), these are not isolated incidents. In fact, these incidents are common enough that bullying laws were initiated to address the growing concern.

Kids are generally not mentally or emotionally equipped to handle the shunning or ridicule or humiliation or personal anguish that often accompanies defamation. In fact, kids have killed themselves after being defamed.

I understand that not all false statements can support a lawsuit, and that is as it should be. Some false statements leveled against some people, however, cause incredible damage. Whether a five year old and her playmates are as affected by the statements as the adults might be is a question mark, but there is plenty of evidence to suggest that parents can be as cruel (if not more so) as their children and can easily guide their own children away from any playmate they take exception to, for whatever reason (lies told, race, religion, etc).

What has happened in EV151's case may not be anything near actionable. I don't know. It is because I don't know that I recommend a review.
 

davew128

Senior Member
Since you will not go into details, and most of us cannot fathom what could possibly be said today that would forever harm a 5-year-old's future - you might want to consider consulting mental health professionals.
Fixed it for you. ;)
 

quincy

Senior Member
Exactly. I don't feel comfortable posting on an online forum about the whole issue. But it is as bad if not worse than the examples given. ...
I received your three private messages, EV151, and I will try to respond to them off the board when I have more time.

Your situation is more complicated, and the accusations leveled against your daughter worse, than what you indicated in this thread. I think you are smart to have an attorney look into the matter.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
I received your three private messages, EV151, and I will try to respond to them off the board when I have more time.

Your situation is more complicated, and the accusations leveled against your daughter worse, than what you indicated in this thread. I think you are smart to have an attorney look into the matter.
Ditto.

However, as I responded to her PMs, the criminal aspects are still pretty much off the board and a civil claim would likely be limited to only one party, and even that is iffy as to any chance of an award.
 

quincy

Senior Member
Ditto.

However, as I responded to her PMs, the criminal aspects are still pretty much off the board and a civil claim would likely be limited to only one party, and even that is iffy as to any chance of an award.
I think a civil claim might make good sense, but I am still looking into it to determine better. I probably won't get back to EV151 until tomorrow so I am glad EV151 contacted you also.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
I'm not convinced that a civil claim would be viable or even cost effective under the circumstances. Personally, having been in a situation quite similar to hers, I found the prospect of spending $10,000+ for an at best 50% chance of prevailing rather daunting.
 

quincy

Senior Member
I'm not convinced that a civil claim would be viable or even cost effective under the circumstances. Personally, having been in a situation quite similar to hers, I found the prospect of spending $10,000+ for an at best 50% chance of prevailing rather daunting.
Cost is definitely something to consider.

I would place the chances of prevailing with a defamation suit at far better than 50%, though, based solely on what has been disclosed - not that I think filing suit against the false accuser would necessarily be EV151's best option. To me, a lot depends on the daughter.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
I don't think so ... a strong (and expensive) argument as to the damage done would have to be made, and it's not about defamation so much as it is about extortion - the threat to release info. So, the given damages that might be available for defamation might not be available, and you'd have to prove harm done by the extortion. Regardless of whether they CAN get an award, a jury will look for actual harm, not potential harm to someone's psyche years down the road.
 

quincy

Senior Member
I don't think so ... a strong (and expensive) argument as to the damage done would have to be made, and it's not about defamation so much as it is about extortion - the threat to release info. So, the given damages that might be available for defamation might not be available, and you'd have to prove harm done by the extortion. Regardless of whether they CAN get an award, a jury will look for actual harm, not potential harm to someone's psyche years down the road.
There does not have to be proof of reputational harm or of fault to support a defamation claim under the circumstances described. These will be presumed due to the nature of the false accusations.

And, because of the age of the child involved, the damages awarded can actually be greater than they can be for an adult because, as I said earlier, children are not as equipped as adults to handle the shunning that occurs as a result of defamatory statements. Children process it all differently and the reputational injury tends to take the form of emotional and physical complaints.

Again, this all depends on how this child has reacted to the statements and how others around this child have reacted to her because of the statements. There is, however, already an indication of shunning.

I will leave the extortion aspect to you and your experience in California, because I see that as a police matter.

Because EV151 prefers to keep details off the main board, I will respect EV151's wishes and not say anything more here. I am researching case law for California but I want EV151 to rely on the advice offered by the attorney in California already contacted.
 

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