Public Recorded conversation at Starbucks in California

[EV151]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? California

My 5 year old Daughter is a victim of Slander from a grown adult. She is making tons of very hurtful and false allegations and has even convinced some gullible adults to kick her out of a city activity by the director of the company she works for.

We do have a recording of the conversation my wife had with this woman. My wife placed her phone on the table in front of the lady... but did not tell her it was recording.

I know it is not legal in California to record a private conversation if all parties are not aware. But in this case it was in a Starbucks with many other people that were there.

Would we legally be able to use something like this in court to prove Slander and threats?

Edit: Also... this was not inside Starbucks. This was outside at a table. They did not have to enter starbucks. It was at a table outside next to the parking lot. People were able to walk by and it was not behind closed doors.

 

[Ohiogal]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? California

My 5 year old Daughter is a victim of Slander from a grown adult. She is making tons of very hurtful and false allegations and has even convinced some gullible adults to kick her out of a city activity by the director of the company she works for.

We do have a recording of the conversation my wife had with this woman. My wife placed her phone on the table in front of the lady... but did not tell her it was recording.

I know it is not legal in California to record a private conversation if all parties are not aware. But in this case it was in a Starbucks with many other people that were there.

Would we legally be able to use something like this in court to prove Slander and threats?

You illegally recorded someone and want to use it? How is your five year old being slandered? She is five. What is being said by the woman?

 

[cbg]

The fact that it was a Starbucks rather makes the situation worse, in my opinion. Did you have the permission of everyone in Starbucks to make the recording?

 

[CdwJava]

Recording conversations loud enough to be heard in a public place is not really going to be much of an issue, especially if the device was obvious. If it wasn't obvious, the worst that is likely to happen is that the recording would not be permitted in to evidence. But, in general, if I'm having a conversation in Starbucks so that anyone can hear, I have no expectation of privacy.

However, I have to agree - how is a 5 year old being slandered? And, why would someone care to make something up about a 5 year old to get them kicked out of some city activity?

But, assuming there might be some grounds for slander, what do you ant to do? Such lawsuits require actual damages, cost tens of thousands of dollars to litigate, and take a few years to wind their way through the court. Does the 5 year old have any damages? Do you? Do you have about $15-20,000 sitting around to attempt to sue someone for bad-mouthing your 5 year old? And, of course, if the comments are true - or perceived to be - then it wouldn't be slander.

 

[cbg]

Just for the record, while I don't necessarily disagree with Carl's response in the first paragraph, I can definitely see an attorney making the point I did if this is pursued.

 

[CdwJava]

I suspect that recording a conversation that can be overheard by someone sitting at a neighboring table will lose the expectation of privacy required under the law. Of course it'd be a moot point because none of the people at the neighboring tables would ever likely be named as a party to this civil or criminal matter if it ever rose to either so there'd be nothing to pursue.

The question with regard to the individual in question being recorded would be whether the recording was obvious or fell under an exception to the law. From what has been written, I don't see an exception, so the recording would have to have been obvious for the content to be admissible.

And as a note, I have never seen nor been made aware of a prosecution for unlawful recording under CA law when it was not accomplished through a surreptitious recording device (i.e. a "bug"), but I have seen such evidence excluded from a case.

 

[EV151]

I had to add an edit above that I think makes this that much more legal...

Edit: Also... this was not inside Starbucks. This was outside at a table. They did not have to enter Starbucks. It was at a table outside next to the parking lot. People were able to walk by and it was not behind closed doors.


As for those asking what the matter is about. I do not feel comfortable going into details. But the allegations on my daughter is outrageous ridiculous disgusting and unbelievable. This is not about being mad that an adult would say mean things... this is much worse then that and could damage my daughters future at 5 years old. What we are going through is unbelievable! I want to protect my daughter in every way I can and I want to stop this. I am desperate and want to do everything I can to protect her.

 

[CdwJava]

I had to add an edit above that I think makes this that much more legal...

Edit: Also... this was not inside Starbucks. This was outside at a table. They did not have to enter Starbucks. It was at a table outside next to the parking lot. People were able to walk by and it was not behind closed doors.

It still doesn't change the legal requirement with regards to the recording of the conversation. CA is a two party state. So, absent an exception (usually to garner evidence of a crime such as extortion or threats) the recording would have to have been objectively obvious, or, openly acknowledged. A secret recording is likely inadmissible, and possibly even criminal.

As for those asking what the matter is about. I do not feel comfortable going into details. But the allegations on my daughter is outrageous ridiculous disgusting and unbelievable. This is not about being mad that an adult would say mean things... this is much worse then that and could damage my daughters future at 5 years old. What we are going through is unbelievable! I want to protect my daughter in every way I can and I want to stop this. I am desperate and want to do everything I can to protect her.

Most poor behavior is NOT legally actionable. A person has a legal right to be a lout, to be obnoxious, and to be ignorant. But, those characteristics are neither criminal nor do they give rise to any legal claim by themself.

Since you will not go into details, and most of us cannot fathom what could possibly be said today that would forever harm a 5-year-old's future - you might want to consider consulting attorneys. However, once again, absent any damages, $10-20,000, and a few years of expensive litigation, no attorney would be able to make a case out of this.

 

[quincy]

I had to add an edit above that I think makes this that much more legal...

Edit: Also... this was not inside Starbucks. This was outside at a table. They did not have to enter Starbucks. It was at a table outside next to the parking lot. People were able to walk by and it was not behind closed doors.


As for those asking what the matter is about. I do not feel comfortable going into details. But the allegations on my daughter is outrageous ridiculous disgusting and unbelievable. This is not about being mad that an adult would say mean things... this is much worse then that and could damage my daughters future at 5 years old. What we are going through is unbelievable! I want to protect my daughter in every way I can and I want to stop this. I am desperate and want to do everything I can to protect her.

If the allegations made by the adult about your young daughter were "outrageous ridiculous disgusting and unbelievable" then the odds are pretty good that others will find what was said outrageous, ridiculous, disgusting and unbelievable - and for a statement to be defamatory, it must be believable. Otherwise, there is no reputational injury.

Defamation involves reputational injury and it is unlikely that your daughter has a reputation yet that can be so severely injured to warrant legal action against the adult who made statements about her.

BUT, without knowing what exactly was said by the adult, it is impossible to tell you what legal options are available to you (if any).

You mentioned "threats" in your first post and, if you or your daughter were threatened, then you can file a police complaint and let the police investigate the matter.

You can consult with an attorney in your area if you are hell-bent on finding a way to stop this adult from making derogatory comments about your daughter. The attorney can review all that was said, and why, and the attorney can go over what has happened to your daughter as a result of the comments. Perhaps all it will take is for an attorney to send the adult a cease and desist letter with a request for a public retraction of whatever it was that this adult said, made to whomever it was that the adult said it to.

Good luck.

 

[EV151]

Thanks. We have contacted a lawyer. We have also spoken with a police officer. They said false claims like this happen all the time. They spoke with my daughter and they can tell she did not have anything to do with these things the other mother is saying. This also is not the first time that family has been in trouble for fraud. They are going to do an investigation on the other family now. We are sending a cease and desist letter as well. I know most adults who have heard these outrageous claims would never believe such a crazy story. I just hope we can repair the damage that is already done.

 

[Zigner]

Thanks. We have contacted a lawyer. We have also spoken with a police officer. They said false claims like this happen all the time. They spoke with my daughter and they can tell she did not have anything to do with these things the other mother is saying. This also is not the first time that family has been in trouble for fraud. They are going to do an investigation on the other family now. We are sending a cease and desist letter as well. I know most adults who have heard these outrageous claims would never believe such a crazy story. I just hope we can repair the damage that is already done.

Ahh, so the police are now investigating civil claims?

 

[quincy]

Ahh, so the police are now investigating civil claims?

The police would not investigate a defamation claim, but the police could investigate threats, depending on what the threats were. Also, if outrageous, ridiculous, disgusting and unbelievable statements had something to do with the five-year-old committing some sort of crime, the police could investigate that. And a police complaint could potentially be filed over harassing conduct, if the problem EV151 is experiencing with the adult is an ongoing problem.

It would certainly help to know what exactly was said.

I can, as a note, think of a few things that could be said of a five-year-old that could harm the child's reputation - but those types of things tend to be reported to the police immediately, which is not the case here, apparently.

 

[CdwJava]

Thanks. We have contacted a lawyer. We have also spoken with a police officer. They said false claims like this happen all the time. They spoke with my daughter and they can tell she did not have anything to do with these things the other mother is saying. This also is not the first time that family has been in trouble for fraud. They are going to do an investigation on the other family now. We are sending a cease and desist letter as well. I know most adults who have heard these outrageous claims would never believe such a crazy story. I just hope we can repair the damage that is already done.

No, the police are not investigating rude or careless comments. It's not a crime, and the police do not deal with civil matters. If they told you they would be investigating, it was probably their way of blowing you off. Though, they might talk to the other woman and suggest that she shut up about your child at least in your presence.

Also, as a note, saying mean stuff about a child is not "fraud."

And what "damage" could possibly have done? But, if you have the money and a lawyer willing to bill you for drafting a cease and desist letter (something that has NO legal bearing at all), then it's your money to spend enriching the attorney.

 

[quincy]

... And what "damage" could possibly have done? ...

"Damages" depend on what exactly was said about EV151's daughter and what has happened as a result.

It is highly unlikely that a five-year-old would suffer any financial damages or economic losses, but there can be physical and emotional harm that results from defamatory comments for which compensation can be awarded.

Although five is awfully young, kids have sued their defamers over published defamatory comments before. Bullying incidents can result in both criminal and civil actions.

To read an Associated Press article written in 2012 by Dorrie Turner and Greg Bluestein covering a defamation suit filed by a young girl in Atlanta (that gives mention of a few other like-suits), here is a link:

http://www.today.com/id/47196239/ns/today-today_tech/t/teen-sues-classmates-libel-over-facebook-page/

Although there are a few states now with bullying laws that can be used as an alternative to a defamation suit, a defamation suit can be an option to consider when the reputational harm is severe enough to warrant the costs.

But, facts matter - and we have been given very few of them here.

 

[EV151]

Ahh, so the police are now investigating civil claims?

This not just a civil case. That's why the police are investigating as well as we have a lawyer.