Danger to Himself and Others

[AnonyMouse777]

What is the name of your state? PA


My Husband had his brothers down for a fun weekend of playing computer games. His brothers were 17 and 21. Let me start by saying, a few years back, the 21 yr old was in a auto accident and had some head trauma. It wasn't apparent at first, but over time he started to develop behaviors where he couldn't control his temper, some moments of paranoia and angry outburst both verbal and physical (physical meaning not towards people...just inanimate objects).

That being said, on Sunday after a normal weekend we decided to get chinese food before my husband had to take his brothers back to where they lived (a few hours away). We ate and being brothers they critqued the food and the 21 year old used to work at a chinese restaurant and they made probably 2 comments back and forth debating who had better chinese food. The place were the 21 year old used to work vs. my husbands opinion. Without ANY warning at all, the 21 year old jumped out of his chair, pushing it backwards, (we were in the dining room), he rushed to the kitchen, hit some shelving mounted on polls completely out of their sockets, all the stuff on them flying off. My husband yelled to stop! He went for the door and was about to hit the glass but (and he must have had some sort of restraint) chose not to put his hand through the glass but just pounded the door. My husband and the 17 year old ran over to him and and tried to restrain him not wanting him to break anything else. I yelled to the 21 year old to please just go outside, go outside. A minute past, and my husband and the 17 year old carried, dragged the 21yr old outside and locked the door. He proceeded to pound the front door. but then stopped and just stood on the front stoop. the 17 year old went out side behind a gate we had and called over to him because he wanted to talk to him about it. My husband quickly got on the phone with his parents and told them tat they better come down for him, because God forbit, he would do that on the drive home, it would cause an accident for sure.
Parents being on their way (remember 2 hours away) about 1 hour passed the 21 still being outside and the 17 yold brother talking to him. The 21 yrold started pounding on the front porch again this time yelling, and then grabbed a chair i had on my front stoop and flung it into the yard (hitting my car in the process). My husband ran outside to get a hold of him restraining him on the ground (he used to be a wrestler so knows how to do this efficiently without hurting him). I was worried for the wellfare of everyone involved including my 22 mos. old son who was asleep in the house so the first thing I thought was to call 911. I called, the police came and put handcuffs on the 21 year old who by this point was as calm as can be when he saw the cops. We explained what happened. We told them about the accident and the lack of control he has (i heard about it but never saw it until today). They never mentioned once taking him to a psychiatrist for a mental health evaluation. All they said was that they could charge him for disorderly conduct (because the 2nd part happened on our front lawn), and either release him to wait the other 30 minutes for his parents to get down here, or #2 drop him off somewhere for us to tell his parents to pick him up. I told the cop, i'm sure that he would be upset that i called the cops so keeping him here would not be a good idea, however, in the state he was in, i was worried about leaving him go in public. the 17 year old was asked about going with the 21 year old, the 17 yold was kinda scared to be around him at this point but again those were the only choices the officers gave us. so that is what we did.

Now, my mother in law asked us why we didnt suggest the mental evaluation to the cops?
I think at the time, we were all so in disbelief about the whole thing we just didn't think of it.

My mother in law has looked into her options for getting help for her son, but
a. he is 21 so he is an adult
b. the 21 year old has refused to take medication
c. he has seen multiple doctors, and they all say he needs medication but the 21 year old refuses to take it.
d. this is the 2nd time police has been involved in his outbursts
e. he says he is fine and doesn't need it but doesn't want to get a job or leave to live on his own somewhere.
f. My MIL is afraid that if she does 'tough love' and tells him he needs to leave and get on his own two feet, she will feel guilty if something happens to him or if he does something bad to someone else.
g. She says that because he is an adult she would not be able to commit him.

I think G. (as much as none of us want to see that happen) at the same time, I think if he really does need help...that we would be HELPING him by doing this.
Also, what i have been reading breifly about is that if we can prove that he is a harm to himself and others, we have grounds for him to be evaulated.

it's horrible but it reminds me of a situation where a person gave people 100 red flags and warning signs, but NO ONE is dealing with it (doctors, and the cops). The virginia tech shooter gave people 100 red flags, but the doctors who said that somehting didn't seem right with the guy, just completlely ignored them and look what happened.

You would think that all of these 'official' people could pay attention to the us who are around this 21 year old who need help more attentively and realize that WE know him better than THEY do... and to take our words with a grain of salt is just a tragedy in and of itself.

It feels like its a hopeless situation for the 21 year old.

I need some advice on what we can do for this 21 year old whom I love very dearly and dont want to see anything bad happen too him.

thanks in advance for your advice,

AnonyMouse777

[Silverplum]

Please edit that booklet waaaay down to merely the pertinent legal question, with minimal explanation. Thanks.

[xylene]

This is a tragic situation, but hubby's brother is an adult.

You need to inform husband that mentally ill brother is NOT to come around anymore, certainly not until he is in effective treatment and outburst free for a long time.

You have your own family to think of.

This course of action would be best for all concerned.

You, and really your husband too, have no standing to legally force anything.

If 21 y.o. bro lives with your mother in law, you need to get the gumption to say, "ME and baby aren't coming over to where a very dangerous person lives."

MIL will get the hint about the fact that her enabling a 21 year old to live and not deal is very bad.

[proud_parent]

So, was your brother-in-law charged with disorderly conduct? If not, why not?

The police have no authority to order or even to suggest psychological evaluation of a citizen who is neither under sentence nor charged with a crime. The courts do have some authority to order involuntary examination and/or treatment for adults under these and other very limited circumstances.

You need to take steps to protect yourself and your family from your brother-in-law's potentially violent outbursts.

If your mother-in-law has exhausted other options to facilitate appropriate treatment for her son, she may wish to review the Pennsylvania Mental Health Code and/or Pennsylvania Code Chapter 5100 to understand the limit of the state's authority to intervene.

[url]http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/055/chapter5100/chap5100toc.html[/url]


I also highly suggest that your mother-in-law consider counseling for herself.

[AnonyMouse777]

Originally Posted by Silverplum

Please edit that booklet waaaay down to merely the pertinent legal question, with minimal explanation. Thanks.

Silverplum, for advice, i felt i needed to give the story and the background of the situation.

[Silverplum]

Originally Posted by AnonyMouse777

Silverplum, for advice, i felt i needed to give the story and the background of the situation.

I see that some others were willing to read it all and give advice, so I'm glad you got help.

[AnonyMouse777]

Originally Posted by xylene

This is a tragic situation, but hubby's brother is an adult.

You need to inform husband that mentally ill brother is NOT to come around anymore, certainly not until he is in effective treatment and outburst free for a long time.

You have your own family to think of.

This course of action would be best for all concerned.

You, and really your husband too, have no standing to legally force anything.

If 21 y.o. bro lives with your mother in law, you need to get the gumption to say, "ME and baby aren't coming over to where a very dangerous person lives."

MIL will get the hint about the fact that her enabling a 21 year old to live and not deal is very bad.

Xylene: All of the above has already been done. 21 year old isn't allowed to come into the house anymore, and the MIL has already said to us 'well i guess her grandson isn't going to be coming up anymore'. My husband and I do agree that it just doesnt' seem to be safe and of course opened the invitation to them MIL and FIL, and 17 brother to come down whenever they want to see him to visit.

You say we have not standing legally, so I think that we are going to stay out of it then. Thank you Our only involvement will be to support MIL in a good decision for the 21 year old. Thank you for your quick response.

[AnonyMouse777]

Originally Posted by proud_parent

So, was your brother-in-law charged with disorderly conduct? If not, why not?

The police have no authority to order or even to suggest psychological evaluation of a citizen who is neither under sentence nor charged with a crime. The courts do have some authority to order involuntary examination and/or treatment for adults under these and other very limited circumstances.

You need to take steps to protect yourself and your family from your brother-in-law's potentially violent outbursts.

If your mother-in-law has exhausted other options to facilitate appropriate treatment for her son, she may wish to review the Pennsylvania Mental Health Code and/or Pennsylvania Code Chapter 5100 to understand the limit of the state's authority to intervene.

[url]http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/055/chapter5100/s5100.71.html[/url]


I also highly suggest that your mother-in-law consider counseling for herself.

Thank you Proud Parent. I will definetly review the link you provided. Yes, he was charged with disorderly conduct but they said that he would just get a fine (that unfortunately lies on my MIL and FIL to pay since 21 year old doesn't have a job.
Thank you for your concern about my MIL as well. She alreayd does take Med. for mental health, and has connections with Nami to discuss these situations with.

We'll see how everytihng goes in the next couple days or weeks.

[AnonyMouse777]

Originally Posted by Silverplum

I see that some others were willing to read it all and give advice, so I'm glad you got help.

Hehe...i know it was a book. I think I definelty got at least some reassurance with our decision to not have him come around anymore, and a link that I can pass along to my MIL.

So that is a start.

[AnonyMouse777]

Originally Posted by proud_parent

If your mother-in-law has exhausted other options to facilitate appropriate treatment for her son, she may wish to review the Pennsylvania Mental Health Code and/or Pennsylvania Code Chapter 5100 to understand the limit of the state's authority to intervene.

[url]http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/055/chapter5100/s5100.71.html[/url]

I just read the page you sent to me and I wanted to run by you if I'm understanding it or not. To me it read that his mom could do nothing without the 21 year olds consent. In other words, in this day and age you cannot commit anyone, even a person you know is not well and has demonstrated so, to be evaluated unless they consent to it?

This truth (if i'm understanding it correctly) makes me worry for her...that she HAS no options.

[proud_parent]

Originally Posted by AnonyMouse777

I just read the page you sent to me and I wanted to run by you if I'm understanding it or not. To me it read that his mom could do nothing without the 21 year olds consent. In other words, in this day and age you cannot commit anyone, even a person you know is not well and has demonstrated so, to be evaluated unless they consent to it?

This truth (if i'm understanding it correctly) makes me worry for her...that she HAS no options.

My sincerest apologies. I meant to post a link to the chapter's Table of Contents. I had drilled down to a particular section to further my own understanding. I regret the error.

The correct link is: [url]http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/055/chapter5100/chap5100toc.html[/url]. The relevant sections are under the heading INVOLUNTARY TREATMENT.