I have a question in reguards to teaching children.

[Vegito]

Okay so I understand the world at large (1st world countries) are starting to accept homosexuality. And thus the rights of freedom of opinion and rights to speak about any thought that someone has about such topics if it is not in agreement for the right of homosexuality and the rights purposed there of are being taken away and called hate crimes. But that isn't my question.

My question is this. Okay there are still millions of adults who have the opinion and the religious thought that homosexuality in any form is wrong and a violation of Biblical principles quoting both New and Old testament scriptures. Why is it a federal crime in the United States of America and State crime in some states (not sure if it is all of them) to teach a child (say if you were religiously anti homosexual in any way shape or form from a Biblical point of view) that homosexuality is wrong and that the people who are homosexual will be condemned by God?

AND doesn't the United States Constitution promise not to make any laws for or against any religious belief and teaching?

 

[CdwJava]

Where is it a "federal crime" to teach that homosexuality is a violation of Biblical principle and/or God's law?

While the laws are encroaching ever closer on criminalizing religious speech as criminal, it has not yet crossed that line.

It is not acceptable to teach religious principles as a standard of behavior in PUBLIC school, but that's not the same as saying it is a "federal crime." (My cynical side will go on to say that it is largely forbidden to provide instruction on Judeo-Christian principles in public school, but most any other religious or pseudo-religious philosophy is accepted or begrudgingly so ...)

But, as I struggle to remain on point, it is NOT a federal crime to provide instruction in Biblical or religious principle that provides that homosexuality is wrong or sinful.

 

[single317dad]

Discrimination, especially where the rights of one overlap the rights of another, is a bit muddy. There are times when you can, and can't, legally discriminate based on color, religion, etc.

For example, if you don't like black people? Fine. Don't allow them on your property. If you're a realtor? Don't discriminate; you'll be in violation of the Fair Housing Act.

Think women are inferior to men? As long as your wife agrees, you'll get along splendidly, but don't take that attitude to work with you. Feel free to build a clubhouse and tack a "NO GIRLS ALLOWED" sign out front.

Even some traditionally exclusive endeavors have been challenged recently: Augusta National and The Citadel are examples. I could foresee traditionally black colleges facing the same scrutiny one day.

While religious freedom is indeed a building block in our nation's foundation, what is generally deemed unacceptable are religious beliefs that will harm someone else, such as taking a critically ill child to prayer instead of a doctor, and bigotry of any kind. While it's still seen as somewhat acceptable in many circles to quote the Bible (quite incorrectly in most cases) to support an opinion of homosexuals, that attitude is losing support, and will eventually be as outdated as separate water fountains. Agree or disagree, those days are over.

Even today, speaking your mind about issues long ago settled (such as race) is perfectly legal, as long as you don't slander someone. To say "Black people are less intelligent than whites" is an opinion, and though you'll be ridiculed, you'll be within your rights to do so. To say "Tyrone Brown is selling crack to all the white kids" or "Hassan al-Iraqi has a bomb under his robe" is actionable. Similarly, you may continue to tell anyone who will listen that you believe that all homosexuals will burn in Hell; you can even teach your children that. To do so, however, would put them at a social disadvantage in the future, and that would be your fault.

 

[LdiJ]

I think what say it in a nutshell is that its ok to hate the sin, but not the sinner.

Its ok to teach a child that homosexuality is contrary to god's law if that is what you honestly believe. It is not however, ok to teach a child to hate someone who is homosexual. In fact, if you want the child to not have problems functioning in the world as an adult, its very important to teach the child that not everyone has the same beliefs and that its necessary to be courteous to all people.

 

[Vegito]

****warning sensitive material in this post reader beware read at your own risk****
]
However I have heard that it is a hate crime to tell your children that those who choose to practice homosexuality and that it is the person who is homosexuality and others who have participated in teaching that individual and others that it is okay to be of same gender sexual love is wrong and sinful and that they will be punished by God.

side note, its strange to me that it's okay to force the people of the USA to accept homosexuality or go to jail for hate speech and slander and other such problems. And be forced to accept all other religions and not speak bad about them. However the atheist (which is a registered religion of no religion) can go to court and have other religions tokens taken out or banned from public and governmental facilities. What I am saying here is:

To talk Bible/ to establish monuments in Government or public forums = shoving it down my throat to many atheists, non bilibcal minded people and undecided people. It must be removed.
To talk anti bible/ no religions of any kind/ atheism = okay not a problem. To teach it and evolution is okay. However both of these are religions on their own.

A list:
To talk about anything biblical in schools (public or government (not private)) is not okay. Bible anything = a belief = religion = not okay.
To talk about atheism = belief = religion = okay as long as you don't say the words God, or deity in any manner
To talk about evolution = belief = religion = okay as long as you don't say if there is or isn't a deity of any type.

What I am saying here is if people are striving to co exist together and to love one another and to not attack each other and foundations. than why is there so much "hate" (if you will) against anything deity releated? You can't talk about that or teach that or you are hating someone. But yet the ones who claim that everyone is hating on them that wants laws to protect their way of thinking and sexual choices turn around and can attack those who have faith in the God of the Bible and any other religion that says that Homosexuality is wrong. Plus these same individuals (not all please keep that in mind) and others such that are atheist or are agnostic but choose to believe in evolutionary types of thinking. Can have their laws passed to shove down the throats of people. For instance they get to teach their "religion" at schools but yet people like me can not teach that at schools or are limited in what we can teach our children because until they are of age (18 or determined by court) we parents are responsible for their actions. Because they haven't learned how to communicate without breaking the law. So it's on our heads if they "hate speech" or whatever.

So I guess if you understand what i am saying in this post, why is it okay that the (not all ---->)atheists, people who don't fit any regulated rule stricken religions, and undecided type people like evolutionists or anyone else who fits in these boats to cram their beliefs down others throats (figuratively) that claim to have faith of any sort of any religion that is organized and has a infrastructure of rules and regulations of dos and donts?

Example to clarify: If I were to say to my child, "We believe because the Bible teaches so, that homosexuality is wrong and sinful and that the bible says that a judicial court is to decide death for a person who commits homosexuality. And that no one is born that way, that it was influenced by the music in the house (subliminal influence), parents past choices of thoughts and actions they have done in life before they conceived the children, what they teach a child about the world of s**, and also if their parents of bi or homosexual that it is an influence to the child to do so as well." and my child ends up spouting the same stuff at school or public forums I would be arrested for teaching my child hate speech regardless if it literally is in the Bible that I claim to follow or not. Regardless if it is religion or not and faith belief. However If I were an atheist, homosexual or bisexual, evolutionist with no belief in God, etc. And I told my child, "There is no wrong in being gay or lesbian, there is no god, we came from many years of evolution, have sex with anyone you want when your 18 or older. Plus ignore those who say other wise they are wrong and don't know what they are talking about. They just need something to believe in. We all know from science that same gender love is ingrained at conception and sometimes a choice people make. The same for bisexual love. Discredit religion of any sort that disagrees with us in evolution and sexual preference with scientific facts and studies." this person would get into no trouble whatsoever if their child decided to repeat this stuff at school or even in public forums. My question is Why is this, I have seen the things I am talking about. I personally have never been in trouble for such things. But I have seen it and heard of those same people being convicted for things like what I have described. Why is this? can someone tell me why? Plus I don't have any court cases by name or number to give to you if you want them because I never asked for them or looked them up. I just had general discussions with people about this and seen it for myself as they got arrested or served in some cases and followed up to see what happened. If that makes since. Plus I can not contact those individuals it was a few years ago.

Please have legal background when explaining if you so choose.

 

[mmmagique]

Do YOU have a legal background? No? (and I know you don't because people with a legal background don't argue law based on what they have "heard")

Then why do you get to decide who else posits an opinion on this thread?

 

[I'mTheFather]

I was not aware that evolutionism is a religion.

There are, generally speaking, no religions pushed on others in public schools as far as I know. Various religions may be studied, but none are advocated. Why is it a problem to learn about other cultures?

 

[CdwJava]

Reiterating my previous post, it is NOT a crime to speak one's religious beliefs or even to teach it where it is frowned upon or prohibited by policy (such as within the public schools). Yes, from my perspective as an evangelical Christian, the public school policy is misguided and overboard as it restricts one form of religious speech but not another ... but, it is still not a crime to violate those legal precepts. Though, I will not be surprised that if in my lifetime it WILL be a crime to preach Biblical principle even from the pulpit and even where it is NOT actively fomenting any form of dissent or violence (we already see this cropping up in Canada and within other western European countries).

So, to keep it on point, there is no crime to teach what you believe. Not yet.

 

[CdwJava]

I was not aware that evolutionism is a religion.

There are, generally speaking, no religions pushed on others in public schools as far as I know. Various religions may be studied, but none are advocated. Why is it a problem to learn about other cultures?

Other cultures ... no problem. But, when we prohibit religious speech even by students, then we go to far. Remember the First Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

It is the restriction in the free exercise that is objected to by many of us.

I recall a time many years ago when my oldest son (then 6 and in 1st grade) had the opportunity to bring his favorite book to class and read it. There had never been any prior review by the teacher and no limitations on the subject matter. When my son mentioned that he wanted to bring "his" Bible (a children's Bible) to class, the teacher practically went into hysterics and forbid him to. Fortunately, the principal was reasonable and stepped in to assure the teacher that my son's reading his Bible for 5 minutes to the class was NOT the state establishing a religion. Sadly, that form of common sense does not seem to be so common these days as I read of more and more instances where the free exercise of religion is squelched within the public forum.

I suppose it can be said, we don't mind you being a Christian, just do so quietly and in private - something that is contrary to our faith.

 

[I'mTheFather]

Other cultures ... no problem. But, when we prohibit religious speech even by students, then we go to far. Remember the First Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

It is the restriction in the free exercise that is objected to by many of us.

I recall a time many years ago when my oldest son (then 6 and in 1st grade) had the opportunity to bring his favorite book to class and read it. There had never been any prior review by the teacher and no limitations on the subject matter. When my son mentioned that he wanted to bring "his" Bible (a children's Bible) to class, the teacher practically went into hysterics and forbid him to. Fortunately, the principal was reasonable and stepped in to assure the teacher that my son's reading his Bible for 5 minutes to the class was NOT the state establishing a religion. Sadly, that form of common sense does not seem to be so common these days as I read of more and more instances where the free exercise of religion is squelched within the public forum.

I suppose it can be said, we don't mind you being a Christian, just do so quietly and in private - something that is contrary to our faith.

I'm sorry that happened to your son. It shouldn't have. But I have to disagree that the teacher's overreaction is a common occurrence. In fact, students are free to form religious groups, talk about their faith with others, and engage in religious practice on campus... Christian, Muslim, Zoroastrianism, or whatever, as long as their activities are not disruptive. If they're denied, a well-placed phone call should enlighten the teacher/school.

 

[Vegito]

Other cultures ... no problem. But, when we prohibit religious speech even by students, then we go to far. Remember the First Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

It is the restriction in the free exercise that is objected to by many of us.

I recall a time many years ago when my oldest son (then 6 and in 1st grade) had the opportunity to bring his favorite book to class and read it. There had never been any prior review by the teacher and no limitations on the subject matter. When my son mentioned that he wanted to bring "his" Bible (a children's Bible) to class, the teacher practically went into hysterics and forbid him to. Fortunately, the principal was reasonable and stepped in to assure the teacher that my son's reading his Bible for 5 minutes to the class was NOT the state establishing a religion. Sadly, that form of common sense does not seem to be so common these days as I read of more and more instances where the free exercise of religion is squelched within the public forum.

I suppose it can be said, we don't mind you being a Christian, just do so quietly and in private - something that is contrary to our faith.

I agree this is exactly what i am trying to say. If someone speaks up in a classroom with a faith belief they are squelched but if evolution is brought up than it is accepted why is this?

To you who said you were unaware of evolutionism being a religion. Religion in essence is belief. When someone says, "I [---------------->]Believe[<----------------------] in evolution." They are have a religion The religion of belief of evolving.

To you who said who am I to say who can post here. You miss read or misunderstood perhaps. I was not saying who can and cant post here. I was requesting for someone with a legal background to please speak up and put their input in.

To you who said there is no law against religion. You are partially wrong. Lets go with this example. Lets say you were lesbian and I am who I am believing it is wrong. And we engaged into a discussion about homosexuality. Lets say its established that you know I believe it is wrong and I know you disagree. Than you ask me why. I say, "I believe it is wrong because the Bible says that it is wrong and that anyone who practices it is to be put to death. And furthermore that not just anyone can put someone to death, it's required that a judicial court that follows only what the bible says convict the homosexual and sentence them to death."You as a lesbian would more than likely cry "hate speech" and a cop would come running and arrest me. Even though its my religious right have and speak such an opinion, and even if I say "in my opinion" it is still considered hate speech. Yet if you were to say, "I believe Homosexuality is correct and right in all that it is and I believe this based off all the scientific evidence I agree with, and because of my own experiences. Plus I believe that all those who don't agree should be thrown into jail because they are haters against people and society and cause problems with people." IF I were to say "hate speech" the cops would laugh and even the judge and wouldn't even hear it. There is a bias and I don't understand why people are going that way.

TO most of you who read my last post. Maybe you didn't read everything but I did say that I know people who have been criminally charged for hate speech of specifically what i am talking about, I have seen it on the news where i live here in the USA and I have had friends who said that they have people they know who have been charged and convicted of the same thing. This isn't a question of is it possible this is WHY does it happen?

The first amendment no long is enforced even though they say it is.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

It is part of the Master Plan to control the US. Take away our God, our Freedom, our job, our home, our history and our brotherly love. All that is left will be compliant lemmings.

 

[CdwJava]

Vegito, as a peace officer I can say with confidence that if you told a lesbian that you believed that lesbians should be put to death because that is what God said (and, I would argue that point with you, by the way), you could not be arrested here in CA.

While such words might be labeled as "hate speech," the speech - BY ITSELF - is not a crime. For it to be a crime some other element/action would have to be present. if your words were intended to incite immediate violence against the target of your speech, yes, it could be criminal. If your words were accompanied with some action that carried with it the threat of imminent harm to the target, you might have committed a crime. But, simply saying it to her would NOT be a crime. If it were, then the whole of the Westboro Baptist Chuch (and I use that term with my fingers squarely holding my nose as it regards that group) would have been arrested long ago because that is PRECISELY what they advocate.

And, ImTheFather, if you were involved in CA education or paying attention to the changes in curriculum occurring here you would know that the state-mandated changes sweeping through our school systems are increasingly hostile to people of faith both in policy and required implementation. I'd be less concerned if the state would allow us to send our children to public OR private schools through the use of a voucher system, but they don't, and our children are and will increasingly be subject to social indoctrination that is becoming increasingly unfriendly to those of faith through mandated texts and additional hours on areas involved in social engineering at the expense of core skills. Fortunately, my children are all but done with school (as of next year I will have 3/4 in college), but I fear for the generation coming up behind them and the parents that are increasingly lacking the financial ability to send their children to alternative - and often better - educational alternative programs.

I agree that some student religious organizations are permitted on most campuses still, but there have been instances here of public schools banning ALL religious or political groups - even all student organizations entirely - in order to avoid having one faith-based organization ... not so much because of an anti-faith bias, but a fear of legal repercussions for permitting its presence. We have become so cowed out here that when one speaks of a student religious organization, a day of prayer, a prayer rally at the flagpole, etc., you hear hushed whispers of concern about the ACLU ... it can be a truly unnerving affair.

 

[Proserpina]

To you who said there is no law against religion. You are partially wrong. Lets go with this example. Lets say you were lesbian and I am who I am believing it is wrong. And we engaged into a discussion about homosexuality. Lets say its established that you know I believe it is wrong and I know you disagree. Than you ask me why. I say, "I believe it is wrong because the Bible says that it is wrong and that anyone who practices it is to be put to death. And furthermore that not just anyone can put someone to death, it's required that a judicial court that follows only what the bible says convict the homosexual and sentence them to death."You as a lesbian would more than likely cry "hate speech" and a cop would come running and arrest me. Even though its my religious right have and speak such an opinion, and even if I say "in my opinion" it is still considered hate speech. Yet if you were to say, "I believe Homosexuality is correct and right in all that it is and I believe this based off all the scientific evidence I agree with, and because of my own experiences. Plus I believe that all those who don't agree should be thrown into jail because they are haters against people and society and cause problems with people." IF I were to say "hate speech" the cops would laugh and even the judge and wouldn't even hear it. There is a bias and I don't understand why people are going that way.

This is coming from probably the most uber liberal poster in the forums. Ready?

You're misunderstanding the Constitution, and you're gravely misunderstanding the reality.

TO most of you who read my last post. Maybe you didn't read everything but I did say that I know people who have been criminally charged for hate speech of specifically what i am talking about, I have seen it on the news where i live here in the USA and I have had friends who said that they have people they know who have been charged and convicted of the same thing. This isn't a question of is it possible this is WHY does it happen?

The first amendment no long is enforced even though they say it is.

(putting on my "nicer" hat)

Hon, you really need to sit down and study the Constitution and what it actually means.

 

[Vegito]

Vegito, as a peace officer I can say with confidence that if you told a lesbian that you believed that lesbians should be put to death because that is what God said (and, I would argue that point with you, by the way),

The book of Genesis says literally word for word without interpretation "If a man is found sexually with another man than he must be put to death out side the camp". Then in the NT it says that women will lie with women and be lovers of themselves in the last days. I can quote direct without interpretation. So YES from the BIBLES position and only it and not interpreted and not from human tradition it says to put them to death. You might want to check your translation with the actual script it is translated from if it doesnt say that exact quote because there is a lot of miss translations.