Chpt10, OTH (army)

[canyonFF]

What is the name of your state?First off let me say that I know I have no possibilities of getting into any form of military service with an RE-4. I also know that with a chapter 10 there is about .00000000000000000001 chance of this getting altered in anyway. Infact i talked to a lawyer just the other day, with a practice of 20 years dedicated to military law, and he had only seen 1 alteration to a Chapter 10. And it was by EVERY means unique. I've been out for roughly 2 years, and I know the entire process from the ADRB, how it works etc. etc. But that's not what I'm asking about.

I already know how some of the viewers are going to interpret me, but I ask that you lay your opinions aside until I'm finished. Just to let you know about me I joined the army early, when i arrived at basic I was 17 and 2 months old. I had a stellar service record. numerous COA's, SOM boards etcetc. By the time I was just over 19 I got waivered promotion to E4. Waivered to be allowed to go to the promotion board a few months after that. But alas, all that is meaning less now, as I made many poor choices in my last two months of service. I won't go into details about my case, but suffice it to say I put myself in a bad position, and it got really bad (hindsight: All my fault, don't hold it against anyone but myself). I ended up going awol for 31 days. (less than 13 hours after they did the paperwork for my DFR did I return.)

SO here is the main point of this topic, and military lawyers, if you're here, please pay attention. When I returned the CO informed me very quickly they were initiating Courts-martial (CM) proceedings. I met with TDS (JAG) and he told me my best option was to sign a chapter 10, he went into what it was, said, etcetc. and I went ahead and did it (probably another mistake). Now a chapter 10 is somewhat of a get-out-of-jail-free card, but it has some nasty after effects once you're out. But the main thing is this: NO ONE ever advised me that a courts-martial can be dropped by the command! I thought once it started it was going to happen. NEVER, not until 2 years later, did I realize that it can get dropped, and they can administratively punish you.

So I found out about this through a friend of mine, a NCO of almost 20 years and a friend of about 5 years. but he told me how it breaks down, and that he's seen this happen a lot. Is that the commander calls the legal section and says roughly "I want this guy out of the army, what's the fastest way?" and as long as that person has done something to warrant a CM, legal will say roughly "Okay initiate CM procedures, and TDS will tell them about the Chapter 10, and they'll probably take it." So they do just that. Now I'm not saying my TDS lawyer LIED to me, but I don't think he fully explained to me ALL my possibilities, which is damn near the same thing. When I asked about the chapter 10, I asked how often do they get approved and he told me it was case dependent but he would say about 75%. BUT that's b.s. THEY ALL GO thru unless you MURDERED someone, anything miniscule like what I did is going to get approved. They aren’t going to waste the money on an expensive courts-martial. An old 1sg friend of mine was going to talk to my 1sg to make him keep me in the army, but once I told him i put in the chapter 10 he said "OH! Well you're out then." He knew it was going to get approved. And, of course, it did.

Now here is the problem that I'm having. NO ONE ever told me that they can just drop a CM and still have a legal way to punish you. If I had known that who knows where I would be today, probably in jail. But in all honesty, no one wanted to confine me for like 5 years, they wanted to confine me for roughly 30 days then reclass me. So I know I kind of walked right into this, and bought the chpt. 10 hook line and sinker, but if what my friend has to me is true, then, I'm sorry, that is just wrong of the military to do.

I know legal can give legal advice to the commander on his options, but when a soldier goes to speak to legal he expects, and should receive, COMPETENT LEGAL ADVICE. Now let's be honest, we all view people that have been in some trouble as rag-bags, and you may throw out the "weed out the bad/weak" excuse, but there is no excuse for a lawyer to push one thing and neglect talking about some other choices. To do that would me he/she isn't being objective. So they are doing one of two things: 1) being stupid, in not fully understanding EVERY aspect of the situation and viable alternatives. In which makes them unfit to represent you. Or 2) Helping the command, which means they’re biased and have labeled the soldier. And think likewise that getting him out is "for the good of the army." This also makes them unfit to provide objective legal advice.

Now this practice may not be illegal, but it is a shoddy practice of law. And if it is being used in depth, like my friend inferred, then something is wrong, and it needs to be looked at. As a lawyer, there is NO excuse for either willfully neglecting a client’s right in favor of the army, or not knowing every possible outcome of the situation. and if a lawyer willfully does not divulge pertinent information to said client, then THEY SHOULD BE REMOVED. Regardless of what that client has done, how he is viewed/labeled, etc.etc.

Not every average person is a law genius, but I would assume a lawyer to be. And without some type of previous knowledge in military law, the average soldier isn't going to be able to get his head around the entire proceeding, with every possible outcome, in a 72 hour time frame or however long it takes before CM proceeding actually begin. I'm not aware of the actual time, because a chapter 10 supersedes, and postpones, the proceedings (especially if the command and everyone involved, minus the accused, knows it’s going to get approved). This is why we go to legal!!! So taking advantage of a soldier thru misinformation, or the lack of information, in a moment of weakness, is unfair. It should not be exploited, or allowed, especially by a lawyer.

As I said, I fully realize I placed myself in the position. I seriously do blame only myself for everything that happened, as I was the one that started it. I love the army. And even while most people would use a situation like mine to trash the military, I do not. I still tell all that will listen, and some that won’t, about the opportunities the army, and Military in general, have to offer. I don't sugar coat it, i tell them like it is. That there are many great deals, but they do come with a sacrifice. But that that sacrifice of time and energy is duly worth it in the long run, and at many times not as bad as some people make it out to be (never was for me). Even with everything that has happened i have remained friends with nearly all my NCO's and peers, and they, and other people, to this day still support me going back into the military. Now I would love to, i made some poor choices, and they won't happen again, but it's simply not going to happen. The discharge is simply not going to change, because of the inherent text of the Chapter 10. It is viewed as equitable and proprietary, so it generally won't change. I am of the opinion my case is one of the ones that won't. And you can actually view the results of the ADRB online, I think 1 out of the hundred I read was actually “upgraded.” (This includes all types of discharges not solely CHPT. 10)

All that said, I know I will never don a uniform of the U.S. military again, but I do try to help the army and the soldiers in what ways I can. And if that means exposing an exploited method of pushing a soldier out of the military, through misinformation and misdirection, and abuse of their lack of knowledge of the proceedings, then so be it. Regardless of what a person has done, in this country, they have the right to competent information. It is not my intent to harm the military in anyway, put I do feel that this requires further investigation.

In closing, and I honestly mean no discredit to the JAG Division, if you get yourself into a situation where you're facing a major penalty, then you should get a second opionion. And not from the lawyer whos office is as close to being on post without actually being on it. Call or visit an established lawyer, OF MILITARY SPEciALTY. You don't need this person to represent you, but most will charge an hourly rate, to give legal advice on your situation. And it won't break the bank if it takes an hour or two.

But I would say, ecspecially to those young soldiers, like I was, to be patient. DO NOT MAKE IRRATIONAL DECISIONS IN THE HEAT OF THE MOMENT. You are seriously going to dick yourself hard, even though you don't think it's going to happen to you. If you get an RE 3 your going to have to jump through a S-load of hoops when you finally decide to go back in, as most do. And if you get an RE4 your seriously dicked. Read the Regs. (NAVY RECRUITING MANUAL-ENLISTED
COMNAVCRUITCOMINST 1130.8F, chpt 3N-8 and AR601-210, chapter 3, table 3-1) You're not going to get into the Reserves, or NG components. you are "INELIGIBLE TO REENLIST, WAIVERS NOT AUTHORIZED AND WILL NOT BE CONSIDERED" (re4). Chances are your discharge ISN'T going to get changed, despite legal representation, pleading and crying, whatever. so don't EXPECT that this will happen. If it does, it will probably be years (yes, plural) down the road.

[123rich]

Wow, thats real life stuff right there. I have been in the Army for alomst 10 years now and I have seen some shady things just like that. Although I do not agree with the wrong the Amry does do, I do think that some (and I'm not saying you) Soldiers deserve that. The Army is full of terrible Soldiers and unfortionatly just like in any legal system, an undeserving Soldier does get screwed. I'm sorry it happend to you is a Chapter 10 hurtfull on your civillain job? Good Luck..

[canyonFF]

This is the case I was telling you guys about in my original post.

This guy joins the Army. Goes through BCT, AIT and gets into AD. For 2(two) years he is a great soldier. No problems whatsoever. Then up and one day he dissappears. For 2(two) years this guy is AWOL, and just shows up out of the blue one day back at his unit. Of course they're going to CM him. And what do you think happens? TDS tells him to put in a chapter 10. So he does that, and what do you think happens? It goes thru! Well I'll be... So this guy has dicked himself right? Wrong! evidentally the ADRB didn't think so, because they "upgraded" his stuff to full honorable. So what did he do to deserve to be pushed into signing this death-trap of a document? He was a stutterer. Stutterer like porky pig ahde ahde ahde that's all folks! For his time in service he was made to call every cadence, run ever PT formation, etc etc. And everyone would laugh at him, make fun of him, joke on him etcetc. This inferes to me that the command let this happen, cause generally when theres a formation, the CO is around. This guy put up with this for two years, before he just gave up one day and left. Now what legal genious at TDS didn't think there was more to this case, and that it possible could have been fought? Hazing is illegal in the army. Who knows, but they pushed the guy into the chapter 10. He was able to get documentation from other NCO's that were there at the time, and the ADRB changed his record completely.
This just goes to show that the TDS guys must not even be looking at these cases. They are just seeing the word Courts-martial and a guys name on the same document, equating him to a rag bag and pushing a chpt 10. You have to get a second opinion when your dealing with a courtsmartial!!! because if you didn't commit some heinous act TDS isn't going to waste his time with it, he's just going to push you through giving the minimum effort. In my case, I couldn't afford it. I'm not affluent or from an affluent family. I was young, strapped with bills and couldnt afford full legal fees, I didn't even really discuss the case with the counselor. But they do charge by the hour. If you guys can't afford the fees, then just pay for their legal advice on what you should do $100-200 tops. This system is funneling people out of the army without even taking consideration as to the case it seems. You would think a lawyer would have thought "we might actually have a chance to prevent this." He was probably lazy, and I'm sure complacient in his job, and didn't want to do the extra work. It's the most efficient CM ever, push the kid into admiting he's guilty, let him label himself with a discharge, once it's started he can't stop it, then he puts his ownself out of the army with virtually no chance to get anything done to it and probably screwing himself harder in the long run.

And yes, an OTH-RE4 can make you completely uncompetive in the job market without the right connections.... or a fake id.