Dishonorable discharges

[cyberspook]

What is the name of your state? N/A

I have been reading in the newspapers as I am sure a lot of others about the recently exposed cover up and admission by the Army regarding Army Ranger Pat Tillman.

The papers are reporting that the officers who allegedly took part in the cover up could be dishonorably discharged.

Now correct me if I am wrong but I thought that officers could not be dishonorably discharged.

Thanks in advance

[IrishLady47]

The media may not be making the same distinctions as the Army. There are 4 characterizations of service possible: honorable, under honorable conditions, under other than honorable conditions, and dishonorable. An officer who is administratively separated (not court-martialed) will not receive a dishonorable discharge (with exception of warrant officers who are not commissioned (WO1 & CW2).

So a commissioned officer facing court-martial who elects resignation in lieu of court-martial will receive a OTH discharge at worst.

Honestly, outside of CM or other serious criminal acts, few enlisted soldiers receive dishonorable discharges. OTH is a lot more common than dishonorable.

[cyberspook]

Originally Posted by IrishLady47

The media may not be making the same distinctions as the Army. There are 4 characterizations of service possible: honorable, under honorable conditions, under other than honorable conditions, and dishonorable. An officer who is administratively separated (not court-martialed) will not receive a dishonorable discharge (with exception of warrant officers who are not commissioned (WO1 & CW2).

So a commissioned officer facing court-martial who elects resignation in lieu of court-martial will receive a OTH discharge at worst.

Honestly, outside of CM or other serious criminal acts, few enlisted soldiers receive dishonorable discharges. OTH is a lot more common than dishonorable.

Maybe I didn't make my OP clear. I understand the honorable, General, OTH, BCD and dishonorable characterizations. Honorable, General and OTH being admin discharges and BCD and dishonorable being punitive.

I also am pretty sure a BCD can be given at a special court martial and a dishonorable can only be given at a General Court Martial.

Now what I am asking is can a commisioned officer be given a dishonorable discharge? I thought no but Lord knows I have been wrong before.

[fozzy2]

An officer can be reduced to an enlisted rank, but of course any subsequent discharge is then the discharge of an enlisted person....

An officer "separated from the service by dismissal pursuant to sentence of general court-martial" does not get provided with a 'certificate of discharge' of any type. Instead they get a letter basically outlining their being court martialed and dismissed. According to the MilPersMan "It is now officially in all respects equivalent to a dishonorable discharge." So you might say "A rose is a rose is a rose...."

[IrishLady47]

Originally Posted by cyberspook

Maybe I didn't make my OP clear. I understand the honorable, General, OTH, BCD and dishonorable characterizations. Honorable, General and OTH being admin discharges and BCD and dishonorable being punitive.

I also am pretty sure a BCD can be given at a special court martial and a dishonorable can only be given at a General Court Martial.

Now what I am asking is can a commisioned officer be given a dishonorable discharge? I thought no but Lord knows I have been wrong before.

You're right, your original post was not clear. It stated "I have been readiing in the newspapers"; therefore I was responding to that. Obviously, you already understand the differences, so why didn't you ask your question more clearly.

As Fozzy2 indicates- an officer is "dismissed" via general CM which is the equivalent of a BCD or dishonorable discharge. Minor correction to his post - a commissioned officer cannot be reduced in rank, again only a warrant officer can be returned to a previous enlisted rank; and then discharged accordingly.

[cyberspook]

Originally Posted by fozzy2

An officer can be reduced to an enlisted rank, but of course any subsequent discharge is then the discharge of an enlisted person....

An officer "separated from the service by dismissal pursuant to sentence of general court-martial" does not get provided with a 'certificate of discharge' of any type. Instead they get a letter basically outlining their being court martialed and dismissed. According to the MilPersMan "It is now officially in all respects equivalent to a dishonorable discharge." So you might say "A rose is a rose is a rose...."

Ok I thought that the answer was right along those lines. So technically the newspapers are right? These officers could be busted to down to privates and then discharged with dishonorable discharges. I know that's not going to happen but...

Thanks for the clarification

[cyberspook]

Originally Posted by IrishLady47

You're right, your original post was not clear. It stated "I have been readiing in the newspapers"; therefore I was responding to that. Obviously, you already understand the differences, so why didn't you ask your question more clearly.

As Fozzy2 indicates- an officer is "dismissed" via general CM which is the equivalent of a BCD or dishonorable discharge. Minor correction to his post - a commissioned officer cannot be reduced in rank, again only a warrant officer can be returned to a previous enlisted rank; and then discharged accordingly.

Qoute:


so why didn't you ask your question more clearly.

I thought it was pretty clear. I was trying to be nice. Won't make that mistake again.

Usually one ends a question with a question mark. No biggy right?

BTW there are 5 characterizations not 4. You forgot the BCD aka Big Chicken Dinner and the second one is called a General discharge (under honorable conditions).

Your response to the question lacked a accurate answer. I tried not to be so obvious in letting you know that. Again we won't be making that mistake in the future.

[SHORTY LONG]

About an Officer being discharged with less than a Honorable, not sure exactly in today's time just how!
For simplicity of the types of discharges:

1. Honorable
2. General
3. Undesirable/OTH
4. Bad Conduct: Special and General Court's-Martial.
5. Dishonorable: General Court-Martial.

[badapple40]

OK, lets clear all of this up, right now.

A. Officers cannot be reduced to enlisted rank. An officer enters active duty with his commission (which consists of a presidential appointment for O-1 through O-3 and a presidential nomination followed by confirmation by the senate for O-4+). That officer does not sign enlistment papers.

B. Officers cannot be given a Bad Conduct Discharge, nor can they be given a Dishonorable Discharge. Those discharges are only awarded at court martials and are only available for enlisted personnel.

C. Officers can be dropped from the rolls and they can be dismissed. If dismissed outright (without a court martial), they can demand trial by court martial. Or a general court martial can punish an officer with dismissal.

D. A dismissal is largely viewed as a dishonorable discharge, and disqualifies that officer from owning a firearm under federal law (same as a dishonorable discharge does), but it is not a dishonorable discharge in the strict sense of the word (just viewed as being the same).

[fozzy2]

Originally Posted by IrishLady47

Minor correction to his post - a commissioned officer cannot be reduced in rank, again only a warrant officer can be returned to a previous enlisted rank; and then discharged accordingly.

871 UCMJ Article 71(b) "In time of war or national emergency he [secretary] may commute a sentence of dismissal to reduction to any enlisted grade. A person so reduced may be required to serve for the duration of the war or emergency and six months thereafter."

Aren't we at war? Not that I've seen it done, or even actually ever heard of it being implemented.....but there it is. Something for misbehaving JOs to think about.

[cyberspook]

Originally Posted by fozzy2

871 UCMJ Article 71(b) "In time of war or national emergency he [secretary] may commute a sentence of dismissal to reduction to any enlisted grade. A person so reduced may be required to serve for the duration of the war or emergency and six months thereafter."

Aren't we at war? Not that I've seen it done, or even actually ever heard of it being implemented.....but there it is. Something for misbehaving JOs to think about.

Just busted out my copy of the UCMJ and sure enough that is what it says.

[badapple40]

No, because Congress hasn't declared war. And, if there were a formal decaration, that also requires that a sentence of dismissal be adjudged in the first place. And then the secretary commutes the sentence to enlisted service -- meaning no dishonorable discharge.

[cyberspook]

Originally Posted by badapple40

No, because Congress hasn't declared war. And, if there were a formal decaration, that also requires that a sentence of dismissal be adjudged in the first place. And then the secretary commutes the sentence to enlisted service -- meaning no dishonorable discharge.

OK Wow!!! I get it... You are saying that if the officer's dismissal is commuted to enlisted service, then that is the end of it??? The former officer would have to commit another crime as an enlisted man to be court martialed and given a dishonorable discharge?

I know this is an old thread but****************************

[fozzy2]

Originally Posted by cyberspook

OK Wow!!! I get it... You are saying that if the officer's dismissal is commuted to enlisted service, then that is the end of it??? The former officer would have to commit another crime as an enlisted man to be court martialed and given a dishonorable discharge?

I know this is an old thread but****************************

In theory that could happen: Be made an enlisted for a first offense, the get court martialed as an enlisted for the second. I believe this section may have actually been used more in the past when enlisted could be promoted directly to officer. During the Korean War, IIRC, may enlisteds promoted "on the field" (brevets) were given actual commissions. The regular Army as a general rule did not like them, many of them didn't measure up to peacetime officer standards (as opposed to leading in combat), etc. etc. The army didn't want them gone, rather it busted them for things like "conduct unbecoming" and gave them a chance to continue their careers as enlisteds.
Hackworth wrote about this in "About Face" (he himself was 'battlefield commissioned' in Korea). An old relative of mine told of a man who had won medals and been promoted to LT. to lead a platoon in Korea. Came back stateside, and when my relative met him he was an E-2 picking up cigarette butts.

At any rate, the clause remains in the books for some imaginative attorney to grab onto. And I wouldn't be so certain that a Congressional declaration of war would be necessary should the military choose to use this (unlikely as it is). The courts have pretty much eviscerated the notion that it takes a congressional declaration to be "at war."