HPSP reimbursement problems (PBL) Branch Switch?

[Mrdstr55]

Hello, I am a 1st year medical student here at WVSOM in WV. I am in their PBL or Problem Based Learning program. This is an osteopathic school and there are many many other schools with PBL based programs established. My problem is in getting rembursed for my books and medical equipment. I filed the MEDCOM 678-R and provided the appropriate receipts sometime in December. Myself and a fellow classmate also ARMY found out we were not getting our reimbursement. We then proceeded to call and find out what the delay was. Apparently a red flag somewhere somehow was thrown up about the PBL program and what it was. Our Dean willingly sent may documents verifying our curriculum and program and went on to explain the very individual nature of the program which entails students basically teaching themselves and then meeting in small groups to discuss cases. Mind you I do not get notes nor do I have lectures. The big deal was over the fact that the ARMY did not understand our program. It was explained and it is accredited as the other PBL programs around the country are. They did not deal well with the fact that students would buy different books from one another those which would suit each student. Our Dean whom was very helpful and verified in writing and verbally to the ARMY that the books submitted were in fact required as the students learning would be dependent on them. After challenging the program the ARMY then questioned why we did not just use the library. No place in my contract does it say we have to use the library for required books! Furthermore, if you are at all familiar with medical school you understand that not all texts are in the library and certainly not all on hand whenever a student needed them. Also the library has very short hours as this is a small school. In my contract it states that I am allowed so much money for required books and equipment. I spend under that amount……According to the latest update the ARMY has lawyers reviewing everything and will be drafting a new policy for such students.

I have a few concerns as to my situation.

1) Why in the past as with 3rd year students that went through the PBL program here at WVSOM did they get full reimbursement without all the fuss and why does the ARMY disregard these people as pertinent to our current situation?

2) If they change my contract to new stipulations giving me a smaller spending limit or effectively tell me the books they think I should have am I still obligated to the program?

4) The NAVY and AIR FORCE students have not had any problems how possible is it for me to switch branches if at all?

Questions 3 and 4 are what I am looking for any help with and I know there are a few military lawyers on this forum and I thought they may have some insight as to those policies. I am not trying nor do I want to get out of anything I just want to know where I stand when there new changes are implemented and whether or not switching to another branch is possible.

THANK YOU

[badapple40]

Write them back. Tell them that they are in material breach of their contract. As such, inform them that they have 30 days to remedy the breach, or that you will be withdrawing from the contract and filing an appropriate habeas corpus action to be discharged.

[Mrdstr55]

As of current they have not given a reply official in writing as to deny or accept the rembursement so am I still OK to do as you mention or do I need to wait for the official ruling as to what they feel is "acceptable"?

The latest news is that they will get back to us in about a week with some "more information" and I need to have this thing fixed before I go to OBTC in TX June 10. I am not up for going if the future of my scholarship is up in the air!

Also there was talk from the women I spoke with that PBL was out of Army regulations because all students are in lecture programs which I know to e completely inaccurate! The other student whom is prior military said we should file an IG complaint as we need to get to a higher source. What is your take on that action?

Thank You

[rmet4nzkx]

Originally Posted by Mrdstr55

Hello, I am a 1st year medical student here at WVSOM in WV. I am in their PBL or Problem Based Learning program. This is an osteopathic school and there are many many other schools with PBL based programs established. My problem is in getting rembursed for my books and medical equipment. I filed the MEDCOM 678-R and provided the appropriate receipts sometime in December. Myself and a fellow classmate also ARMY found out we were not getting our reimbursement. We then proceeded to call and find out what the delay was. Apparently a red flag somewhere somehow was thrown up about the PBL program and what it was. Our Dean willingly sent may documents verifying our curriculum and program and went on to explain the very individual nature of the program which entails students basically teaching themselves and then meeting in small groups to discuss cases. Mind you I do not get notes nor do I have lectures. The big deal was over the fact that the ARMY did not understand our program. It was explained and it is accredited as the other PBL programs around the country are. They did not deal well with the fact that students would buy different books from one another those which would suit each student. Our Dean whom was very helpful and verified in writing and verbally to the ARMY that the books submitted were in fact required as the students learning would be dependent on them. After challenging the program the ARMY then questioned why we did not just use the library. No place in my contract does it say we have to use the library for required books! Furthermore, if you are at all familiar with medical school you understand that not all texts are in the library and certainly not all on hand whenever a student needed them. Also the library has very short hours as this is a small school. In my contract it states that I am allowed so much money for required books and equipment. I spend under that amount……According to the latest update the ARMY has lawyers reviewing everything and will be drafting a new policy for such students.

I have a few concerns as to my situation.

1) Why in the past as with 3rd year students that went through the PBL program here at WVSOM did they get full reimbursement without all the fuss and why does the ARMY disregard these people as pertinent to our current situation?

2) If they change my contract to new stipulations giving me a smaller spending limit or effectively tell me the books they think I should have am I still obligated to the program?

4) The NAVY and AIR FORCE students have not had any problems how possible is it for me to switch branches if at all?

Questions 3 and 4 are what I am looking for any help with and I know there are a few military lawyers on this forum and I thought they may have some insight as to those policies. I am not trying nor do I want to get out of anything I just want to know where I stand when there new changes are implemented and whether or not switching to another branch is possible.

THANK YOU

Badapple already told you what to do if and or when they actually deny your payments. HOWEVER, while you claim it is an accredited program, that doesn't mean that acreditation or the Army's acceptance of the program is not questioned from time to time. OD programs may meet a different standard and the PBL program may not necessiarly meet all standards for reembursement under your contract because you are buying your "required" books from other students on an as needed basis determined by you not necessarly required from the instructor. I am also concerned that you don't keep notes. While it is possible to attain the requisite knowledge through self study, eventually there will come a time when you cannot remember it all and making notes at least helps index the data in your brain. Believe it or not, keeping records is an essential part of your future practice and failing to make that a part of your routine now could lead to your downfall later. Are you in this program because you could not qualify for medical school any other way?

[Mrdstr55]

WOW! I will withhold any negative comments. I will however let you know that you are in gross misunderstanding of a PBL program. As for my qualifications they are not to be questioned I am an excellent student and choose a DO program over an MD program based upon the method of practice and their mindset, if you don't know what a DO is look it up. As for PBl vs other lecture based programs please look into that as well they have been established for 30+ years and have recently come into favor as studies suggest these students outperform regular tract students in the long run. Who said anything about not talking notes? I just don’t have a person telling me what to write, I create them from my texts! I am talking both sets of boards next year COMLEX (DO) and USMLE (MD) as to further my scope for residency in the future. I am on tract academically to continue in excellence toward my goal of going into orthopedic surgery. I truly hope you look into these programs more thoroughly and familiarize yourself with DO's and MD's. Of last point Harvard is currently adopting a PBL tract for there medical students but I'm sure its just to let less qualified applicants in...

I do thank you for your thoughts but they did come off a bit offensive. I will take Badapples advice once I hear a decision. Please remember this is not some strange offshore US medical program this is a regular medical school and program.

[badapple40]

Is there a timeline for them to pay you back for books in the contract? I haven't seen an HPSP contract in a while. Once they are in material breach of that, you've got the basis to get out. But you need to take the required steps to do so. Including filing the habeas action in federal district court.

[rmet4nzkx]

Originally Posted by Mrdstr55

WOW! I will withhold any negative comments. I will however let you know that you are in gross misunderstanding of a PBL program. As for my qualifications they are not to be questioned I am an excellent student and choose a DO program over an MD program based upon the method of practice and their mindset, if you don't know what a DO is look it up. As for PBl vs other lecture based programs please look into that as well they have been established for 30+ years and have recently come into favor as studies suggest these students outperform regular tract students in the long run. Who said anything about not talking notes? I just don’t have a person telling me what to write, I create them from my texts! I am talking both sets of boards next year COMLEX (DO) and USMLE (MD) as to further my scope for residency in the future. I am on tract academically to continue in excellence toward my goal of going into orthopedic surgery. I truly hope you look into these programs more thoroughly and familiarize yourself with DO's and MD's. Of last point Harvard is currently adopting a PBL tract for there medical students but I'm sure its just to let less qualified applicants in...

I do thank you for your thoughts but they did come off a bit offensive. I will take Badapples advice once I hear a decision. Please remember this is not some strange offshore US medical program this is a regular medical school and program.

You were the one who said you had no lecture notes which is one of the down sides to a PBL track. One of the advantages of a LDP is the fact that a single lecture may reach hundreds of students which is especially important when studying certain specialities and you might totally miss this opportunity with a PBL and makes preparation for boards/comps far more difficult. There are diferent styles of learning and the most important place to acquire competency and study skills for med school is in your undergraduate degree program, students with liberal arts degrees fare quite well in med school. Be that as it may I explained why a red flag went up.