military training abuse

[rppearso]

What is the name of your state? Alaska

I have noticed through my own experence and others posting on this forum as well as news articles that there is quite a bit of abuse that goes on in basic training for the military. They drag out discharges, haze, abuse, being recycled (which recycleing is a dispicable act) all kinds of stuff and (as far as my knowlage) has not be a major congressional inquiry on any of this to flush out this type of behavior on the part of the trainers or the base commanders. Is it because the parents or recruits themselves cant "prove it" (not that you are allowed to have voice recorders or camcorders anyways). I have seen and heard enough problems that there should be a major congressional crack down and im not seeing it happen and some of (really most of them) these trainers are equivalant to war criminals. I think it is worth emailing the congressional representation of the states that these training bases reside in for an explaination, which is the next thing I am going to do but I was wondering if anyone here has any useful/insightful, noninflamitory input as well. Using my own experence the abuse is not a fluke or rare case but is a regular occurance.

[SHORTY LONG]

Basic Military Training weeds out the less fortunate;
separates the boys from the men, and the girls from
the woman. This is one reason the training is tough
and rigid! In other words, it weeds out the non
hackers that can't cut the mustard!

[cyberspook]

Originally Posted by SHORTY LONG

Basic Military Training weeds out the less fortunate;
separates the boys from the men, and the girls from
the woman. This is one reason the training is tough
and rigid! In other words, it weeds out the non
hackers that can't cut the mustard!

To the OP:

Recycling is a neccessary part of basic training. It is not intended to be a punishment. Some folks are not prepared for the rigors of training or get ill and have to be set back a bit before they can get the entire package. I was recycled because of Chicken Pox. I spent an extra month in basic training as a result. I have seen other folks that needed remedial physical fitness training and hence recycled. Others that could not qualify on the rifle range or swim, the list goes on and on. Anyway the military for the most part (yes there are @$$holes out there) doesn't recycle men/women to punish them. It is simply a neccessary evil. Kinda like taxes.

Basic training and subsequent military training can be misinterpreted as hazing (and once again there are...), but it is there for a reason. To provide the member with the training he/she needs to survive in a high stress situation (afghanistan, Iraq, maybe Iran, again the list goes on and on).

Rules have been implemted to reduce the amount of "hazing". Drill Instructors/Sgts usually cannot hit or swear at a recruit. The use of live ammunition overhead etc.

This country has to be defended and we need folks that can handle that task. It takes training for those folks to do the task and sometimes remedial training.

I hope my response was helpful.

[rppearso]

The statement you made makes sence, but when I was in I asked to be released (ELS) and was denied, there were others who refused to train and were not immediatly discharged but instead held in basic and were harrased by drills even though there were not in training status (in a hold over platton for who knows how long). Another big problem I have is the PTRP, people there are injured and are in a removed from training status and yet are still subjected to the harrasment of the drills and these cases are not rare or flukes they are every day occurances. I understand the need to have someone yelling or whatever when you are crawling under the wire during the live fire excersize but the abuse at basic training extended much farther beyond the scope of "training events". And when we were at basic drills did swear at us and they justified it because most people watch rated R movies (hello big difference between watching a rated R movie and being denigrated to your face 24/7). And at the CTMC we had drills patroling and were not allowed to sleep, hello maybe thats part of the reason people are sick and injured because they are suffering from sleep depravation. It just seemed to me that the drills were more concerned about taking a piece out of a recruits hind end than there well being. When I blew out my anckle I had a drill stand over me and tell me he was going to pluck out my eye balls because I was sitting down becasue I couldent walk, I would not want to go to combat with someone like that if I were to become injured. Its a total sham, the high level resonning makes sence (such as what you explained) but when it comes right down to where the rubber meets the road there are significant number of trainers that are just flat out dishonorable and its not a couple of drills here and there its the whole system why do they even have drills at the CTMC or PTRP, its complete nonsence and can not be justified in my mind.

[rppearso]

Wow I just read in the UCMJ about misbehavior before the enemy, that could be anything for someone who does not want to be there or who is a coward.

[questionia]

I think this is a classis case of bootcamp/OCS/OBC being what you make of it. You clearly realized you made a mistake early on and decided your experience would not be a good one.

Basic Training in all branches of the service has been developed over a very long period of time by people who know what they are doing. Drill Sargeants/Instructors/TIs/and RDCs are also selected and trained specifically to get the most out of their recruits. I have been through Army and Marine Corps basic training and Army OCS and I never saw an instance of abuse. Not saying it doesn't exist but that much of what civilians think of as abuse is really training in disguise.

Instructors are held accountable for their actions through formal/informal counselings and NCOERs. Unless you see abuse firsthand I wouldn't accept much if anything of what people say. It's usually sour grapes.

[rppearso]

What about the treatment at the CTMC and PTRP (more notably the PTRP) but I have had experence in the CTMC where drills had no buisness being.

[url]http://onlyvolunteers.blogspot.com/2006/02/cadre-at-fort-sill-ptrp-thinks-abuse.html[/url]

I dont think this stuff is as far and few between as some might think.

[questionia]

First, let me say that ironically, I found an article on this subject written by a woman with the same first and last name as my mom (it's a pretty unique name) - pretty sure it wasn't her though.

Second, you point to PTRP and TMC - both places that non-hackers will run to when the going gets tough. It was my experience that the people who suffered the most were those who did not arrived prepared for the rigors of basic. Those people complained the loudest, were injured or had colds most often, and generally tried to drag everyone down with them. They were usally the first to quit in the smoke sessions they caused.

I want to be clear here - this is not legal advice and I'm not bashing anyone. If you enlist, decide it's not for you and want to quit then they (whatever branch) should let you quit. But I don't think they should make it easy on you. It's way too easy to decide during that first or second week down range that it sucks - they have to give you some sort of hurdle to cross.

Also, some people in PTRP and those who go to TMC do have legitimate medical complaints but far too many people scoot off there just to waste time, get some pogey bait, and hit on girls. Drills know this and I think that is why they try to keep people from going there. It's really their job to keep you from letting yourself down.

[rppearso]

I guess that makes sence from the training bases stand point, but what happens when you finally pass through a problem trainee to an actual unit, you then make that trainee the units problem when you should have delt with it at basic while at the same time maintaining the individuals human rights in basic. I had enough sence to play the roll of b*t*h and then handled my discharge at my guard base though email and a few phone calls (much better than being hazed and degraded insesantly for 6-12 months in basic while away from my wife at the same time). The thing is I told the drill I dident want to be there at the end of week 2 and played there little game because they controled my plane ticket so they knowingly handed the guard a person that dident want to be there what did they think that I all of a sudden just changed my mind becaue I graduated from basic, OCS is a second basic and if I could not hack the first basic how in the heck did they expect me to complete OCS. One of the officers of the training base actually talked to myself and one other OC that were in the group the other OC was an ex marine so he was like whatever (he was a nice guy at the same time, and dident berate me for being basicly a civilian in uniform) and I told the officer that this basic was a nightmare and I really dident want to be there and this was at the end of field training. All of the drills knew I was an OC (they had my paper work) and they never failed to remind me of it, I would have thought that as an OC or any E-4 for that matter they would have taken my request a little more seroiusly. I am starting my CO status paper work now in case there is a draft.

Also does anyone know if there are waivers (ie paperwork to file in advance) for a draft for persons that hold certian professional degrees or occupations that are of critical importantance (ie I work in north slope oil and gas development as an process chemical engineer), I know my grandfather was exempt from the WW2 draft because he mined coal and others were exempt who worked at los alamos. I have done alot of reading on waivers, exemptions, discharge types etc and I have never found the one that applies to this situation even though I know it exists.