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  1. #1
    RRHOOP5469 is offline Junior Member
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    Question Minor in Marine Corps--help

    What is the name of your state? Ohio

    My 17 year old son is at Parris Island and has completed 5 weeks of training and has been in MRP (medical recruit platoon) for 3 weeks for a foot fracture. For the entire 8 weeks he has not changed his mentality and wants out. He's had nothing but problems (physically & mentally). I have read that parents can withdraw their consent within 90 days. Is this true? If so, is it 90 days from when we signed the papers or 90 days from when he left for bootcamp? He's been at bootcamp for 60 days but it's been about 93 days since we signed the papers.

    My son is very depressed and getting suicidal and doing stupid things like Unauthrized Absence in bootcamp (being where he shouldn't have been). He won't be 18 until August. There has to be some way we can get our son out since he's still a minor. He does have a learning disability that neither of thought about when "I" filled his papers out for him. He got his GED and had been out of school for 1 1/2 years so it wasn't something we thought anything about. It's not a major learning disability but the symptoms are enough to cause some severe problems but when he told his SDI he had an LD, the SDI said he didn't and to shut up and bite his lower lip to get through.

    The day my son was to leave for bootcamp, his recruiter went to get his school transcripts and the school had them all messed up. They didn't have his 10th grade transcripts, they didn't show I had ever withdrew him from school, they had no record that the superintendent signed off for him to get his GED. They still showed he was "in school". I feel the recruiter faked his transcript. At the swearing in, they told the recruiter 4 times to make sure he got his 9th & 10th grade transcript since passing 10th grade was a requirement.

    He never was able to pass the obstacle & confidence course but I was told that wasn't required. He has 95% flat feet (= foot fracture while running), slowest runner, weak, shin splint in his leg, states he does NOT want to be a Marine, states he's too young and will never be ready for infantry (his MOS), trouble sleeping, wants to be left alone & isolated, doesn't care if he goes to jail, etc. etc.

    He joined for the wrong reasons...the fast money. Even though it's not that much, $1150 is a lot for a 17 year old. We signed because it was something we thought he really wanted to do and thought it would "grow him up". He has learned a great deal and has even quit running from God and says he's "very" religious.

    I have told him to speak to his chaplain, to the psychologist, but it doesn't seem to be getting anywhere.

    Here are his Learning Disability symptoms: delay in academic achievement, slowness in completing work, poor organizational skills, disorganized thinking, oftenobsesses on one topic or idea, poor memory, impulsive behavior, lack of reflective thought prior to action, low tolerance to frustration, poor social judgement, failure to see consequences for his actions, gullible/easily led by peers, variation in mood & responsiveness, poor adjustment to environment changes, difficulty making decisions.

    Please don't tell me we should have never signed for him...we already know that.
  2. #2
    thepizzaguy Guest

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    badapple and fozzy. Your pro-bono services are needed her... GOOD LUCK
  3. #3
    fozzy2 is offline Member
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    If your son (below age 18) had enlisted without your permission, then you would have 90 days from his "enlistment" to petition for his discharge, provided he had not turned 18 in the meantime. 10 U.S.C.A. sec. 1170. Since you agreed and signed for him, that is not applicable. Basically, he is in now. Even in case of fraudulent enlistment, the military does not usually "have" to discharge him. In any event, the concept of "constructive enlistment" probably applies by now -- he is in uniform, has taken orders, and been payed/compensatd.

    He is in boot camp now, and the choice is to buck up and play by their rules - or face a possibly protracted and very uncomfortable path towards ejection. It is too bad he ended up in medical hold so early, it is notoriously bad for morale (though they've tried to improve it since 'my day').

    It is going to be up to the military to decide when/if they want to discharge (or separate) him. If he has medical/psych problems then they will be evaluated and a decision will be made. Intentional misconduct is a risky route indeed for people who want to get out of the service. If you have documentation of a diagnosis or past problems, you can forward that to him and he can give it to his doctors -- at the risk of being accused of fraudulently enlisting if it should have been disclosed.
  4. #4
    Litigation! is offline Senior Member
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    My response:

    Besides, we need him there so he can train to fight in the "Bush Wars."

    No one else wants to fight and die in an unpopular, ridiculous and worthless war, so we may as well send your son.

    This is the chance you take when you voted for that idiot. I'll bet you don't like Bush and his cronies right about now.

    IAAL
  5. #5
    RRHOOP5469 is offline Junior Member
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    fozzy2, thanks for answering. When we signed the papers, the recruiter told us he needed us to sign the papers for our son to get his medical check up (or whatever they call it). I had a "feeling" we were also signing for our son to join but since we had already told our son we would sign, I didn't question it. I ended up signing the papers a couple months before I agreed to sign them...they duped us, lol. Our son wasn't supposed to leave for bootcamp until March but because we signed "those" papers, he voluntered to leave in Jan.




    Quote Originally Posted by Litigation!
    My response:

    Besides, we need him there so he can train to fight in the "Bush Wars."

    No one else wants to fight and die in an unpopular, ridiculous and worthless war, so we may as well send your son.

    This is the chance you take when you voted for that idiot. I'll bet you don't like Bush and his cronies right about now.

    IAAL
    Who the h*ll are you and who said anything about Bush? If a 17 year old thinks infantry is like video games (even though we told him it wasn't) and doesn't feel like he's mentally & physically able to do infantry, that doesn't have anything to do with Bush. Military laws were written long before Bush became president and to be quite honest...ALL PRESIDENTS ARE CROOKS IN SOME WAY. I don't like or dislike any president and I don't take sides. I also don't vote because of that fact. They have a job to do just like anyone else has a job to do. You can't please everyone all the time.

    Obviously the corps don't care what kind of person has a gun protecting other Marines backs. I know if I were a Marine, I wouldn't want someone with my sons problems next to me but that's their choice...not mine.
  6. #6
    RRHOOP5469 is offline Junior Member
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    I forgot to mention...On the GI Rights site it says:

    To enlist people between ages 17 and 18, a recruiter must get written consent from your parents or legal guardian. If you are still 17 and you want a discharge, your parents or legal guardian must request your discharge within 90 days of your enlistment. They should state either that they never gave their written consent (if that is the case) or THAT THEY HAVE CHANGED THEIR MINDS AND WISH TO WITHDRAW THEIR CONSENT. If more than 90 days have passed since your enlistment, you may still be able to get a discharge if you can show that you protested your enlistment early on but were told by military superiors that a discharge would be impossible; that your parents did not know you enlisted; or THAT YOUR PARENTS DID NOT KNOW AN EARLY DISCHARGE WAS POSSIBLE FOR YOU.


    I just want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly. From what this says, I can still withdraw my consent and get my son a discharge because he's 17...I withdraw my consent and I didn't know an early discharge was possible until TODAY. Does this sound correct????
  7. #7
    badapple40 is offline Senior Member
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    You've got some problems legally. That said, you can create some problems legally for the military as well.

    I suggest sending a letter, return receipt requested, to the Secretary of the Navy, indicating that you are withdrawing any consent that could have been given for your son to enlist, have consulted a lawyer, and plan to bring a habeas action in federal district court to secure his release. I would also document, in the letter, the recruiter's misconduct and the fact that he indicated you were only signing, at that time, a form to allow him to be given a medical exam.

    Did you and your husband sign the form?

    As fozzy mentioned, the problem you have is that the statute does not help you because you consented in writing.

    That said, case law holds that modern contract principles apply to enlistment contracts. Novak v Rumsfeld (1976, ND Cal) 423 F Supp 971. And modern principles allows a minor to repudiate a contract before he turns 18. The DoD is afraid that a court will so hold.
    The giving or taking of any advice given in this forum does not constitute an attorney-client relationship and any readers of any posts acknowledge that they are not in any type of attorney client relationship with the poster.
  8. #8
    Litigation! is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by badapple40
    You've got some problems legally. That said, you can create some problems legally for the military as well.

    I suggest sending a letter, return receipt requested, to the Secretary of the Navy, indicating that you are withdrawing any consent that could have been given for your son to enlist, have consulted a lawyer, and plan to bring a habeas action in federal district court to secure his release. I would also document, in the letter, the recruiter's misconduct and the fact that he indicated you were only signing, at that time, a form to allow him to be given a medical exam.

    Did you and your husband sign the form?

    As fozzy mentioned, the problem you have is that the statute does not help you because you consented in writing.

    That said, case law holds that modern contract principles apply to enlistment contracts. Novak v Rumsfeld (1976, ND Cal) 423 F Supp 971. And modern principles allows a minor to repudiate a contract before he turns 18. The DoD is afraid that a court will so hold.

    My response:

    Ooooooooooo!! There's that name again, "Novak v Rumsfeld"

    IAAL
  9. #9
    badapple40 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litigation!
    My response:

    Ooooooooooo!! There's that name again, "Novak v Rumsfeld"

    IAAL
    Back then he was the secretary of defense too. Its amazing that he got to be SecDef in two separate administrations, separated by over 20 years.
    The giving or taking of any advice given in this forum does not constitute an attorney-client relationship and any readers of any posts acknowledge that they are not in any type of attorney client relationship with the poster.
  10. #10
    Litigation! is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by badapple40
    Back then he was the secretary of defense too. Its amazing that he got to be SecDef in two separate administrations, separated by over 20 years.

    My response:

    Yes, under Nixon and now, Bush. Does anyone see any similarities between those two?

    "When we forget our history, we are doomed to repeat it."

    IAAL
  11. #11
    rmet4nzkx is offline Senior Member
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    It is possible for your son to pursue an entry level separation/medical for several reasons.
    Here is something to read.
    CHAPTER 15 - DISPOSITION OF PROBLEM CASES
    [url]http://www.iiimef.usmc.mil/medical/FMF/FMFE/FMFEref/fs_man/CHAPTER%2015.html[/url]
    and
    [url]http://www.usmc-mccs.org/LeadersGuide/Emotional/Suicide/suicideattempt.htm[/url]

    If your son has what is termed a "Personality disorder" (borderline PD) he can be discharged. It is also possible for him to be discharged if the "LD" is Asperger's ask that he be evaluated for both based on his history. Some people with Asperger's do well in the military once they get out of basic other's don't make it through. If he has Asperger's there is increased risk of suicide and also frequently a lack of physical agility resulting in injuries, one reason for ELS.
  12. #12
    Litigation! is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by RRHOOP5469


    Who the h*ll are you and who said anything about Bush? If a 17 year old thinks infantry is like video games (even though we told him it wasn't) and doesn't feel like he's mentally & physically able to do infantry, that doesn't have anything to do with Bush.

    My response:

    Right. It doesn't have anything to do with Bush. Just like Viet Nam had nothing to do with Nixon. But, guess what? It does, and your boy is "in" and he's got a good chance at dying "over there." Too bad he won't be buried in Arlington, though.

    But he's gonna fight, and fight hard for MY Freedom! Err, wait a second . . . what Freedom was that again? Oh, yeah! To be free of being spied on by my President! To uphold our Constitution and Rights. Yea, that's why we're "over there." Now, tell your boy to fight!!!

    And it's one, two, three, what are we fighting for
    don't ask me I don't give a damn, next stop is [Afghanistan]
    And it's five, six, seven, open up the pearly gates
    ain't no time to wonder why, whoopee we're all gonna die!

    You sure do sound familiar . . .

    Aren't you one of those Viet Nam era mothers? Different war, same arguments.
    IAAL
  13. #13
    fozzy2 is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by RRHOOP5469
    When we signed the papers, the recruiter told us he needed us to sign the papers for our son to get his medical check up (or whatever they call it). I had a "feeling" we were also signing for our son to join but since we had already told our son we would sign, I didn't question it. I ended up signing the papers a couple months before I agreed to sign them...they duped us, lol. Our son wasn't supposed to leave for bootcamp until March but because we signed "those" papers, he voluntered to leave in Jan.


    :

    The recruiter may have defrauded you, at least very slyly. If I understand correctly, the current DoD policy is that no one will be put through the pre-processing physical, etc. at MEPS unless they are otherwise eligible for enlistment. Thus, if a 17 year old wants to take the physical, etc. then their parents have to consent to *enlistment* before the MEPS will take the kid. Recruiters will sometimes tell parents "you just have to sign here so s/he can take the physical" but if the parent reads the boilerplate (which they usually don't) it will say they are consenting to the enlistment of a minor - not just authorizing a physical. The kid will show up at the MEPS, take the physical, and be offered a contract to sign -- Of course he doesn't have to sign it, but these are salespeople...... You can argue fraud, but it typically devolves into a he said/she said situation, and there is all that print right by your name spelling out what you were signing. But, having said that, the military doesn't like the tactic and if you can convince them fraud really took place (and you aren't just grasping at straws) they may be agreeable to a remedy.

    The military doesn't like litigating these things, as Badapple said, and if your son has medical/attitude problems anyway, the service is not likely to hold on to him too hard. If he simply "wants out" it may be quickest and easiest for him to just take an entry level separation for medical reasons. There is a possibility that if a suit is actually filed your son will be put on "administrative/legal hold" until its resolution -- particularly if the military wants a precedent on some issue. Given the circumstances you've outlined, the military might also discharge him for fraudulent enlistment. Either way he will probably be coming home soon (soon, in the government context, meaning possibly months).
  14. #14
    RRHOOP5469 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litigation!
    My response:

    Right. It doesn't have anything to do with Bush. Just like Viet Nam had nothing to do with Nixon. But, guess what? It does, and your boy is "in" and he's got a good chance at dying "over there." Too bad he won't be buried in Arlington, though.

    But he's gonna fight, and fight hard for MY Freedom! Err, wait a second . . . what Freedom was that again? Oh, yeah! To be free of being spied on by my President! To uphold our Constitution and Rights. Yea, that's why we're "over there." Now, tell your boy to fight!!!

    And it's one, two, three, what are we fighting for
    don't ask me I don't give a damn, next stop is [Afghanistan]
    And it's five, six, seven, open up the pearly gates
    ain't no time to wonder why, whoopee we're all gonna die!

    You sure do sound familiar . . .

    Aren't you one of those Viet Nam era mothers? Different war, same arguments.
    IAAL

    You must be a troll.
  15. #15
    RRHOOP5469 is offline Junior Member
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    Actually my son has told them about his problems and LD, etc. but the SDI told him that he didnít have an LD and to shut up and just bite his lower lip. Guess itís time to get copies of my copies and bombard them myself. They don't listening to recruits because a lot of them "lie" so much it makes it harder for those with real problems. Someone mentioned that his LD should have shown up on his school transcript, so they should actually know about it, even though we didn't tell them about it but with his transcripts being messed up, I doubt it was on there, but it could be.

    Just by my sons list of LD symptoms, it will be hard to prove he didn't tell them on purpose. He'd been out of school for 1 1/2 years, it's not something you think about. When it asked about past medical problems, etc...I gave them the medical problems, not thinking about the LD cause that was tested at his school. He's at the point he doesn't care if he goes to jail. He's already getting UA's and he's still in boot camp.

    I know all about the militaries hurry up and wait policies, how they hold you and the process of getting discharged, etc. can take a couple weeks to over a month or two.

    For the TROLL: sorry, not a vietnam mother...was born in 69. I don't hold protests even if I don't agree with wars (which I don't). But you sound like one...

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