NAVY Depper Seeking Info

[BE713]

What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state? New York

I'm currently in the DEP Recruit Program for the Navy and some events in my life made me realize that this wasn't something I really wanted to do. I spoke to my recruiter and we had a talk about it but based on the info he gave me it seemed like I couldn't get out at all.

The fact that he's a recruiter though kind of makes me skeptical of how much information he's given to me and generally seemed like he was just trying to dissuade me from quitting which makes perfect sense for him to do as his job. I have about another month before I ship out and I want to know is it too late for me to do anything legally?

I understand the situation I put myself into and if I can't get out then I'll have to suck it up and put up with it, but I figured advice from a neutral party would be more reliable at this point.

[ARMY-HELP]

Don't listen to your recruiter,tell him he is a "Blue Falcon" he will know what I mean. Your not Government Property until you swear in for the seccond time rite before you ship. Nothing will happen to you.

Where in NY are you? I shipped from Ft Hamilton a long time ago.
Good Luck.

[BE713]

I'm in Newburgh and the recruiting station is in Middletown, NY.

[BE713]

Except I said if I can't get out I will go without complaints. I'm not being a coward I'm trying to pursue another path of my life. Also why I asked for a legal way becasuse I'm aware of the consequences of a less than honorable discharge.

I see a coward as someone who blindly follows others without asking questions and not bothering to find out what's best for themselves.

[acmb05]

Originally Posted by BE713

Except I said if I can't get out I will go without complaints. I'm not being a coward I'm trying to pursue another path of my life. Also why I asked for a legal way becasuse I'm aware of the consequences of a less than honorable discharge.

I see a coward as someone who blindly follows others without asking questions and not bothering to find out what's best for themselves.

You are not legally in the Navy yet there will be no discharge. Tell the recruiter to rip up your paperwork that your not going.

[Excort_xavier]

I was in the same situation and my sister who is a petty officer in the navy explained it to me. You have only swore in once, and you are not commited to the NAvy until you swear in the second time which will be the day you are to be shiped out. He want his numbers for this month so he is lying to keep you in. You have the option to get out. My email is [email]excort_xavier@yahoo.com[/email] for questions

[justalayman]

[url]http://forum.freeadvice.com/showthread.php?t=297340[/url]

read this thread. it seems to have all the pertinent info to help/advise

[bluesclues]

Hey you are not oblagated to do anything he is trying to keep his # up that is all it is our job to talk you into going Just send a letter to the MEPS commander telling them that you want to get out and you will be droped from the dep good luck

[badapple40]

Send a letter to the recruiter and to his commander, indicating that you do not want to serve and will not swear in or report.

You are not receiving military pay, and are therefore not subject to the UCMJ. Therefore, they cannot do anything to you when you tell them you will not report.

You CAN get out of your contract until the point that you show up, swear in again, and, more importantly, start receiving military pay, which subjects you the UCMJ.

[USNAVYO3]

Originally Posted by badapple40

You are not receiving military pay, and are therefore not subject to the UCMJ.

That is absolutely not the standard to determine if one is subject to the UCMJ.

I can think of a variety of situations where one is not receiving pay and is still subject to the UCMJ.

[ARMY-HELP]

Originally Posted by AttorneyAtLawn

That is absolutely not the standard to determine if one is subject to the UCMJ.

I can think of a variety of situations where one is not receiving pay and is still subject to the UCMJ.

Come on now,you know full well if he has not swore in for a seccond time he is not Govt property. You can state a variety of situations where one is not receiving pay and it will have nothing to do with this persons case...

Bottom Line. He is only a depper rite now,he can't even get on base legit until he gets a "REAL" ID card.

BE713,your free to leave if you want to.You have done nothing Dishonorable!

[badapple40]

Originally Posted by AttorneyAtLawn

That is absolutely not the standard to determine if one is subject to the UCMJ.

I can think of a variety of situations where one is not receiving pay and is still subject to the UCMJ.

Is that right? Name a couple of your examples. And, as an aside, convictees, e.g. persons under sentence of court-martial, do not count.

[USNAVYO3]

Yes, that's right.

Members of the Navy Reserve Component's Voluntary Training Unit as one example while on drill status. Not paid. Subject.

Members of the IRR recalled under Article 15 or Article 30 proceedings. Not "convictees" (I'm interested in the difference between this word and "convicts," if any -- not familiar with it.

Google:

No definitions were found for convictee.

Suggestions:

- Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
- Search the Web for documents that contain " convictee").

That's two (or three, depending on how you look at it).

Any servicemember (usually Reserve Component of course) on unpaid orders. Happens frequently that IRR and SELRES members pay for their own travel, especially to conventions (e.g. the Civil Engineering Corps gathering). VADM Cotton has made it clear that the Navy Reserve will not pay for such "duty," but you better bet they are subject to the UCMJ: they are in uniform.

So, quite simply, if they are drawing military pay is at best only one prong in a test to show that an individual is subject to the UCMJ.

Originally Posted by badapple40

Is that right? Name a couple of your examples. And, as an aside, convictees, e.g. persons under sentence of court-martial, do not count.

[badapple40]

Thanks for the sarcasm. I'm looking at the MCM and Article 2 of the UCMJ.

Article 2, UCMJ:

(a) The following persons are subject to this chapter:

(1) Members of a regular component of the armed forces, including those awaiting discharge after expiration of their terms of enlistment; volunteers from the time of their muster or acceptance into the armed forces; inductees from the time of their actual induction into the armed forces; and other persons lawfully called or ordered into, or to duty in or for training in the armed forces, from the dates when they are required by the terms of the call or order to obey it.

(2) Cadets, aviation cadets, and midshipman.

(3) Members of a reserve component while on inactive-duty training, but in the case of members of the Army National Guard of the United States or the Air National Guard of the United States only when in Federal Service.

(4) Retired members of a regular component of the armed forces who are entitled to pay.

(5) Retired members of a reserve component who are receiving hospitalization from an armed force.

(6) Members of the Fleet Reserve and Fleet Marine Corps Reserve.

(7) Persons in custody of the armed forces serving a sentence imposed by a court-martial.

(8) Members of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, Public Health Service, and other organizations, when assigned to and serving with the armed forces.

(9) Prisoners of war in custody of the armed forces.

(10) In time of war, persons serving with or accompanying an armed force in the field.

(11) Subject to any treaty or agreement which the United States is or may be a party to any accepted rule of international law, persons serving with, employed by, or accompanying the armed forces outside the United States and outside the Canal Zone, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Virgin Islands.

(12) Subject to any treaty or agreement which the United States is or may be a party to any accepted rule of international law, persons within an area leased by or otherwise reserved or acquired for use of the United States which is under the control of the Secretary concerned and which is outside the United States and outside the Canal Zone, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Virgin Islands.

(b) The voluntary enlistment of any person who has the capacity to understand the significance of enlisting in the armed forces shall be valid for purposes of jurisdiction under subsection (a) and change of status from civilian to member of the armed forces shall be effective upon the taking of the oath of enlistment.

(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a person serving with an armed force who--

(1) Submitted voluntarily to military authority;

(2) met the mental competence and minimum age qualifications of sections 504 and 505 of this title at the time of voluntary submissions to military authority:

(3) received military pay or allowances; and

(4) performed military duties: is subject to this chapter until such person's active service has been terminated in accordance with law or regulations promulgated by the Secretary concerned.

(d)

(1) A member of a reserve component who is not on active duty and who is made the subject of proceedings under section 815 (article 15) or section 830 (article 30) with respect to an offense against this chapter may be ordered to active duty involuntary for the purpose of--

(A) investigation under section 832 of this title (article 32);

(B) trial by court-martial; or

(C) non judicial punishment under section 815 of this title (article 15).

(2) A member of a reserve component may not be ordered to active duty under paragraph (1) except with respect to an offense committed while the member was

(A) on active duty; or

(B) on inactive-duty training, but in the case of members of the Army National Guard of the United States or the Air National Guard of the United States only when in Federal service.

(3) Authority to order a member to active duty under paragraph (1) shall be exercised under regulations prescribed by the President.

(4) A member may be ordered to active duty under paragraph (1) only by a person empowered to convene general courts-martial in a regular component of the armed forces.

(5) A member ordered to active duty under paragraph (1), unless the order to active duty was approved by the Secretary concerned, may not--

(A) be sentenced to confinement; or

(B) be required to serve a punishment of any restriction on liberty during a period other than a period of inactive-duty training or active duty (other than active duty ordered under paragraph (1)).

I then look a MCM, Rule 202, and its discussion.

Of course, if you have someone ordered to active duty to face punishment, and they are aquitted, guess what, they get paid (just like everyone else on active duty)!

Moreover, a specific provision of Article 2 applies to them -- Article 2(d)(1).

Your reservists, who drill, are governed by Article 2(a)(3). They also volunteer to drill without pay, correct?

And, over all of that, are the constitutional limits of court-martial authority, as laid out in Solorio v. United States, 483 U.S. 435. Perhaps some provisions of Article 2 are overbroad and go beyond Solorio.

And lets take a look at pay entitlements.

37 USCS § 204 (in part):

(a) The following persons are entitled to the basic pay of the pay grade to which assigned or distributed, in accordance with their years of service computed under section 205 of this title [37 USCS § 205]--
(1) a member of a uniformed service who is on active duty; and
(2) a member of a uniformed service, or a member of the National Guard who is not a Reserve of the Army or the Air Force, who is participating in full-time training, training duty with pay, or other fulltime duty, provided by law, including participation in exercises or the performance of duty under section 10302, 10305, 10502, or 12402 of title 10 [10 USCS § 10302, 10305, 10502, or 12402], or section 503, 504, 505, or 506 of title 32 [32 USCS § 503, 504, 505, or 506].

(b) For the purposes of subsection (a), under regulations prescribed by the President, the time necessary for a member of a uniformed service who is called or ordered to active duty for a period of more than 30 days to travel from his home to his first duty station and from his last duty station to his home, by the mode of transportation authorized in his call or orders, is considered active duty.

So, with the exceptions of reservists, and, really, we get into pretty fine distinctions with respect to reservists -- the RCM (204) even recognizes that jurisdiction attaches according to regulations set by the secretary, and I'm not going to argue that issue much further, except to point out the decision in . However, with reservists, you still get into the Solorio issue. And, there are other issues, for instance:

Murphy v. Dalton, 81 F.3d 343

(2) A member of a reserve component may not be ordered to active duty under paragraph (1) except with respect to an offense [**7] committed while the member was--

(A) on active duty; or

(B) on inactive duty training . . . .



In any event, this is all academic. Our original poster asked a question about the DEP. Army regulations require that DEP folks who want out get out.
[url]http://www.usarec.army.mil/im/formpub/REC_PUBS/r601_95.pdf[/url]

Such persons are not subject to the UCMJ until and unless they are ordered to active duty (I will grant you that such an event could occur -- but I have not seen it happen in my 20+ years in the military). The military cannot punish them for failing to report to MEPS. They could, however, order them to active duty, then order them to report, but, again, that has never happened.

[USNAVYO3]

I don't get where I was sarcastic. If I was such, please accept my apologies.

Notwithstanding that, I think that your "pay=UCMJ" statement is dangerous and possibly quite wrong.

(The owner of the board made me change my screen-name, even though I am an attorney -- I'm not quite sure I follow her reasoning).

Vr, Wr USNAVYO3

Originally Posted by badapple40

Thanks for the sarcasm. I'm looking at the MCM and Article 2 of the UCMJ.



I then look a MCM, Rule 202, and its discussion.

Of course, if you have someone ordered to active duty to face punishment, and they are aquitted, guess what, they get paid (just like everyone else on active duty)!

Moreover, a specific provision of Article 2 applies to them -- Article 2(d)(1).

Your reservists, who drill, are governed by Article 2(a)(3). They also volunteer to drill without pay, correct?

And, over all of that, are the constitutional limits of court-martial authority, as laid out in Solorio v. United States, 483 U.S. 435. Perhaps some provisions of Article 2 are overbroad and go beyond Solorio.

And lets take a look at pay entitlements.

37 USCS § 204 (in part):



So, with the exceptions of reservists, and, really, we get into pretty fine distinctions with respect to reservists -- the RCM (204) even recognizes that jurisdiction attaches according to regulations set by the secretary, and I'm not going to argue that issue much further, except to point out the decision in . However, with reservists, you still get into the Solorio issue. And, there are other issues, for instance:

Murphy v. Dalton, 81 F.3d 343

(2) A member of a reserve component may not be ordered to active duty under paragraph (1) except with respect to an offense [**7] committed while the member was--

(A) on active duty; or

(B) on inactive duty training . . . .



In any event, this is all academic. Our original poster asked a question about the DEP. Army regulations require that DEP folks who want out get out.
[url]http://www.usarec.army.mil/im/formpub/REC_PUBS/r601_95.pdf[/url]

Such persons are not subject to the UCMJ until and unless they are ordered to active duty (I will grant you that such an event could occur -- but I have not seen it happen in my 20+ years in the military). The military cannot punish them for failing to report to MEPS. They could, however, order them to active duty, then order them to report, but, again, that has never happened.