OTH upgrade to General? Possible?

[newyork1]

Okay so I've read your argument further. I understand that this is not the proper path to air grievances. But I am latching on to the advice given to me by the JAG lawyer from FT. Knox, which was that it was well within my right to file an appeal for an upgrade (though I may not get one). I continue to ask you, if there is no ill consequence to filing no such appeal, and no legal gain (under the circumstances), why not file the appeal, because such an appeal will still be on the record though that record cannot actually be disclosed and used in any legal purpose? It will still be annotated under ARMY personnel records. Will it not?
If it will not, please advise me so, and I will surrender my argument to you. Because so long as it is annotated somewhere in the databases that you have requested an appeal, and whether granted or not, it will show the appeal in the records, I do not see how you can tell someone not to file a motion to appeal. Given that the Army is known to change policies daily, and such information may be helpful in the future to a former member of the service in clearing misconduct records...

Yes! Entitlement is a fine word! Entitlement to rights, the rights of a man, the rights of an American citizen. The right not to be treated as number. Those rights that are antithesis to being a soldier. Unfortunately for the Army, we are not numbers, and not mere dog tags. We are people. People who have made mistakes and now live with them, and will always live with them.

The same way we do not jail those in monetary debt for morale reasons. The same way we do not jail AWOL/deserter soldiers (though it is against the law and punishable by prison time or *ahem* death). It is the same way that sometimes we are granted even further mercy for our screw-ups.

[ERAUPIKE]

Originally Posted by newyork1

Okay so I've read your argument further. I understand that this is not the proper path to air grievances. But I am latching on to the advice given to me by the JAG lawyer from FT. Knox, which was that it was well within my right to file an appeal for an upgrade (though I may not get one). I continue to ask you, if there is no ill consequence to filing no such appeal, and no legal gain (under the circumstances), why not file the appeal, because such an appeal will still be on the record though that record cannot actually be disclosed and used in any legal purpose? It will still be annotated under ARMY personnel records. Will it not?
If it will not, please advise me so, and I will surrender my argument to you. Because so long as it is annotated somewhere in the databases that you have requested an appeal, and whether granted or not, it will show the appeal in the records, I do not see how you can tell someone not to file a motion to appeal. Given that the Army is known to change policies daily, and such information may be helpful in the future to a former member of the service in clearing misconduct records...

Yes! Entitlement is a fine word! Entitlement to rights, the rights of a man, the rights of an American citizen. The right not to be treated as number. Those rights that are antithesis to being a soldier. Unfortunately for the Army, we are not numbers, and not mere dog tags. We are people. People who have made mistakes and now live with them, and will always live with them.

The same way we do not jail those in monetary debt for morale reasons. The same way we do not jail AWOL/deserter soldiers (though it is against the law and punishable by prison time or *ahem* death). It is the same way that sometimes we are granted even further mercy for our screw-ups.

My advice was given to help you, not harm you. I don't care about your category of discharge or your future. You can actually apply for an upgrade to your discharge online now. I encourage you to do so if that is what will make you happy. You do have the right to appeal and you also have the right to know what you are up against. The burden of proof rests on you. You must convince 5 senior level officers that you were given the wrong category of discharge. If you apply for a review hearing you can get denied about 6 months faster. Yes in your service record, under the restricted section, your appeal will be annotated. Your DD214 will not change at all.

I am glad you know the rights that I defended for you. I don't understand how you can assume to know how the Army operates? You ran away after only a few weeks and have no clue about how the process you are so insistent about undertaking works. People are jailed for monetary debts all the time. If those debts were incurred through some action that violated the law, like writing a bad check.

You seek forgiveness for something you have no remorse for. I believe that n your mind you still feel you did the right thing. You feel like because you weren't treated the way you wanted to be treated you were justified in abandoning your responsibility. You still feel that because you didn't get your way it was okay to run away and leave the other combat medics a man short when they went to defend your "entitled rights."

Just as you turned your back on your responsibility the board will turn a blind eye to your pleas for forgiveness. Your DD214 will be your scarlet letter for your shameful and cowardly actions. The pain will run as deep each time your fellow man shows his scorn and discontent for what you have done.

[newyork1]

hmm.. That was your most heart felt response yet. I commend you for your feelings, and thank you for expressing them. Though I am disappointed that you feel the need to shame people and not excuse humanity's fallacies and funny behavior. I would have thought someone distinguished (or at least presenting himself as) would have a little more understanding in this world.

Yes I absolutely feel I did the right thing. Yes I have no regret at all. Left other combat medics? I was miserable, clinically miserable. I would have been a liability to other medics, other soldiers, everyone around me. Of course it sounds pathetic in the scheme of things, but it is not a lie. I am not making up my sudden state of sadness. No I wasn't suicidal but I was falling off a cliff mentally, I was lost and you know how it is in the ARMY, toughen up and drive on. But I was not in a state of normalcy. I was the perfect candidate to be sent home, but it doesn't work like that.

I have remorse that I have to sit there and explain what I know is a completely justified action to people who for one reason or another do not understand. And you are in one group sir, because there are countless people who DO NOT look at that DD214 as a scarlet letter of shame, but for what it is as a youthful indiscretion. My employer just did, my friends have, and the school I am applying for has just lowered their heads and thrown pity my way. I thank God every day that people are not as hateful and shaming as the minority of the world might be.

I don't know why veterans do it, perhaps they are defending something sacred that I have stepped on. Perhaps they are regretful that I did something they (in their minds) could not possibly do. Maybe they are bitter that I got a slap on the wrist, that all I got was a piece of paper saying "in lieu of court martial" and can now continue on with my life. Or maybe it is just their way of drilling in the mistake to a young kid who is still young, and making sure he understands the lesson of his abandoned responsiblity.

The funny thing is, was that I was enjoying myself. I was doing great, completed all of my trainings, excelled physically, and then broke down, because I wasn't an infantry men, I did not have the heart for it. I was a paralegal, getting the colonels coffee, drinking, womanizing, and doing all the things that soldiers not fighting do.

I am not a coward. I am just not willing to fight unless it is necessary. I will leave the fighting to the heroes out there every day in Afghanistan, and Iraq, and waiting for deployment all around the world. God bless those heroes. God bless their bravery. God bless their families.

You've answered my question, that it will be annotated therefore it may serve a purpose tomorrow or years from now. I am proud of myself and I know I have a bright future. The ARMY would have eaten 2 years of my life, doing something I had no interest in doing, in places I had no interest in being. Because I am an entitled and spoiled American, I will get what I want. And I have. Because americans can do anything.
Thank you for your heartfelt response. I hope we can make peace, and I hope you heart can be healed of any pains it has, and I hope that the remedy is not contempt for your fellow man, or throwing barbs and belittling stupid kids for doing stupid stuff.
I didn't belong in your Army dude, get over it.

[ERAUPIKE]

Originally Posted by newyork1

hmm.. That was your most heart felt response yet. I commend you for your feelings, and thank you for expressing them. Though I am disappointed that you feel the need to shame people and not excuse humanity's fallacies and funny behavior. I would have thought someone distinguished (or at least presenting himself as) would have a little more understanding in this world.

Yes I absolutely feel I did the right thing. Yes I have no regret at all. Left other combat medics? I was miserable, clinically miserable. I would have been a liability to other medics, other soldiers, everyone around me. Of course it sounds pathetic in the scheme of things, but it is not a lie. I am not making up my sudden state of sadness. No I wasn't suicidal but I was falling off a cliff mentally, I was lost and you know how it is in the ARMY, toughen up and drive on. But I was not in a state of normalcy. I was the perfect candidate to be sent home, but it doesn't work like that.

I have remorse that I have to sit there and explain what I know is a completely justified action to people who for one reason or another do not understand. And you are in one group sir, because there are countless people who DO NOT look at that DD214 as a scarlet letter of shame, but for what it is as a youthful indiscretion. My employer just did, my friends have, and the school I am applying for has just lowered their heads and thrown pity my way. I thank God every day that people are not as hateful and shaming as the minority of the world might be.

I don't know why veterans do it, perhaps they are defending something sacred that I have stepped on. Perhaps they are regretful that I did something they (in their minds) could not possibly do. Maybe they are bitter that I got a slap on the wrist, that all I got was a piece of paper saying "in lieu of court martial" and can now continue on with my life. Or maybe it is just their way of drilling in the mistake to a young kid who is still young, and making sure he understands the lesson of his abandoned responsiblity.

The funny thing is, was that I was enjoying myself. I was doing great, completed all of my trainings, excelled physically, and then broke down, because I wasn't an infantry men, I did not have the heart for it. I was a paralegal, getting the colonels coffee, drinking, womanizing, and doing all the things that soldiers not fighting do.

I am not a coward. I am just not willing to fight unless it is necessary. I will leave the fighting to the heroes out there every day in Afghanistan, and Iraq, and waiting for deployment all around the world. God bless those heroes. God bless their bravery. God bless their families.

You've answered my question, that it will be annotated therefore it may serve a purpose tomorrow or years from now. I am proud of myself and I know I have a bright future. The ARMY would have eaten 2 years of my life, doing something I had no interest in doing, in places I had no interest in being. Because I am an entitled and spoiled American, I will get what I want. And I have. Because americans can do anything.
Thank you for your heartfelt response. I hope we can make peace, and I hope you heart can be healed of any pains it has, and I hope that the remedy is not contempt for your fellow man, or throwing barbs and belittling stupid kids for doing stupid stuff.
I didn't belong in your Army dude, get over it.

It will be annotated that you were denied an appeal. The details of that appeal are retained in your service record. You were right about a one thing. You are a stupid kid if you believe that the reasons you ran away from your responsibility are valid. The Army would have eaten two years of your life and you would have emerged a better person then before. At what point in your life are you going to begin taking responsibility? At what magic age will you stop externalizing the blame for your mistakes?

You are delusional if you think that your description of life as an Army paralegal are accurate. I must correct your misconception of my personal feelings. I have no contempt towards the individuals that have dishonored themselves by abandoning their commitment to the United States Armed Forces. I simply do not tolerate the foolish things each of has tried to pass off as valid reasons for leaving on this board. The countless stories I have read and threads I have participated in generally result in the same types of excuses. Your post is no exception. Again, understand that your dishonor and shame are yours to bear alone. I have no interest in what you do with your life or what steps you take to attempt to hide your shameful actions. Yes, that was exactly your intention when you first posted on this board, until you found out it would be impossible. At that point your attitude changed to that of a scorned and flippant person who did nothing wrong.

I have nothing else to say on the subject and hope that you have at least learned a little about yourself.

[newyork1]

you had nothing to say on the subject to begin with. People have already stated that it ain't going to happen, you just decided to throw your meaningless veterans bitterness into the situation. And sorry pal, your hate (jealousy?) of people not in the Army is shared by some vets but not stops with the rest of the world.

Shame and dishonor? Its funny that I express neither. Its funny how those around me treat me with neither. ITs funny how that meaningless piece of paper just sits in my drawer and neither impares my ability to go about my daily life, to go to school and get financial aid, to get a job, or gain acceptance amongst my fellow man. (the non-bitter vet man that is)

The Army isn't the only thing that brings pride of country to a person or service to country for that matter. I will not compare my patriotism to yours, but I do feel bad that you wish to put down people rather than find the courage to accept their mistakes and faults, and lift them up.

I am proud that I did not disgrace my country by performing service that I did not care to do and would not have performed aptly at. I am proud that I had the courage to step out and recuse myself from service that I would been negligent at. And I am a better man today after those two months in basic, and after the decisions I made that day.
That suicide rate is no joke, some people can't take the Army. And they need to leave before they hurt themselves and hurt others. It is far more noble to admit your mistake in signing that contract, rather than make a fatal mistake and force its completion without will or care.

Thanks to those that fight. And sorry to those old timers who can't fight anymore, and have nothing else but the pride of Vietnam or Iraq. Sorry, we let you down, but maybe good men can make it right again. Vote Powell, if and when he runs.

[ERAUPIKE]

Originally Posted by newyork1

you had nothing to say on the subject to begin with. People have already stated that it ain't going to happen, you just decided to throw your meaningless veterans bitterness into the situation. And sorry pal, your hate (jealousy?) of people not in the Army is shared by some vets but not stops with the rest of the world.

Shame and dishonor? Its funny that I express neither. Its funny how those around me treat me with neither. ITs funny how that meaningless piece of paper just sits in my drawer and neither impares my ability to go about my daily life, to go to school and get financial aid, to get a job, or gain acceptance amongst my fellow man. (the non-bitter vet man that is)

The Army isn't the only thing that brings pride of country to a person or service to country for that matter. I will not compare my patriotism to yours, but I do feel bad that you wish to put down people rather than find the courage to accept their mistakes and faults, and lift them up.

I am proud that I did not disgrace my country by performing service that I did not care to do and would not have performed aptly at. I am proud that I had the courage to step out and recuse myself from service that I would been negligent at. And I am a better man today after those two months in basic, and after the decisions I made that day.
That suicide rate is no joke, some people can't take the Army. And they need to leave before they hurt themselves and hurt others. It is far more noble to admit your mistake in signing that contract, rather than make a fatal mistake and force its completion without will or care.

Thanks to those that fight. And sorry to those old timers who can't fight anymore, and have nothing else but the pride of Vietnam or Iraq. Sorry, we let you down, but maybe good men can make it right again. Vote Powell, if and when he runs.

If it doesn't hurt you then why did you come to this board seeking to change it? Yawn, come back when you need more legal advice.

[newyork1]

I can't join the NYPD if I so chose to do so. Law enforcement, especially NYPD, does not look kindly on criminal records of any kind. the Jag officer told me so much, thats why he recommended trying to upgrade. A famous story had a felon joining the ARMY and serving and then unable to join the NYPD.

So yawn, small potatoes if it doesnt happen. I'll just bury the paper and save my story for all interested. I'll save my *******ness for the next vet that wants to lecture me about pride and country.

[ERAUPIKE]

Originally Posted by newyork1

I can't join the NYPD if I so chose to do so. Law enforcement, especially NYPD, does not look kindly on criminal records of any kind. the Jag officer told me so much, thats why he recommended trying to upgrade. A famous story had a felon joining the ARMY and serving and then unable to join the NYPD.

So yawn, small potatoes if it doesnt happen. I'll just bury the paper and save my story for all interested. I'll save my *******ness for the next vet that wants to lecture me about pride and country.

You couldn't join the NYPD or any law enforcement agency with a general discharge either. Be sure to save that story for the next employer you try to work for that may be a veteran or the next one you meet in a bar. I am sure they will find your flippant attitude as interesting as I did. You are too naive or just too dumb to really understand the impact your decision is going to have on your life. It is most likely because your actions have not closed any doors you have approached yet. Be assured, you will be denied the chance to advance your life further because of your choices. Then and only then will you realize the true impact that piece of paper has on your life. Feel free to post again in six months to a year when your appeal is denied and you have racked up thousands in students loans that you are a direct reslut of your actions.

[newyork1]

Okay I got the naive part. I got the dumb part. I got the flippant attitude part.

But what does the rest of that post mean? Thousands in student loans? when you are granted financial aid, or a scholarship, they cannot rescind that bud. Whether I get the full amount I would have normally had, is another question, but I will absolutely not rack up thousands of dollars without consenting for it. Or does this go back to your theory of people being jailed for monetary debts?

And the NYPD has only recently stated that dishonorably discharges are reason to disqualify a candidate, and thats only a recent update, it was only six months ago that they were allowing those candidates to apply with a notarized letter explaining their discharge.
This is probably because some people had good reasons for them, (or much better reasons than me), people who had children sick and were refused leave, death in the family, stuff like that.
Or were these people disgraceful cowards too? Yeah, I bet they're shameful communists along with the rest of us too irresponsible to finish our "contract".

Yeah if I want to become a prosecutor, or a politician, or anything in public service, this will be something considered a mark of poor character and probably inhibit any inroads to such careers. But in the real world (private world where things aren't standardized, and little pieces of paper don't mean ****), people don't give a flying **** what you got discharged for when you were 18 or 20, they care who it is sitting in front of them and what they're capable of doing now.
Its sad kind of, there are so many people that build such great lives and lead distinguished careers, and walk around with a dignity, grace, and presence after serving for decades, in wars and peace. And then there are those that can't accept the fact, that the military is not the marker of a man, nor is it the only thing powerful you can do in this world. And neither are soldiers the only ones brave, or the only ones patriotic. They have earned their status, just like everyone else has to earn theirs.

And so, I fully reject any haters or just plain old grumpy men, who can't accept the fact that the ARMY gave an out to those that were not worthy of their fraternity. I thank God every day there are sensible men in this world, and one day, those sensible men will reach out their pen and sign off on forgiveness. Maybe I don't deserve it today, but when I earn my honor, and my patriotism, and when I can carry myself with dignity and not arrogance, I bet they will agree that that paper means nothing. Maybe only to you, but not to me and not the wonderful people who have supported me in the past year.

We need to finish this patheticlly fruitless back and forth. I'll let you carry the last word, so long as it isn't filled with any more nonsense that would scare off other trainees from bailing out of a situation that could be dangerous for themselves and dangerous for others.

going AWOL isn't a disgrace to your country, staying and performing at anything less than your best is.

[ERAUPIKE]

Originally Posted by newyork1

Okay I got the naive part. I got the dumb part. I got the flippant attitude part.

But what does the rest of that post mean? Thousands in student loans? when you are granted financial aid, or a scholarship, they cannot rescind that bud. Whether I get the full amount I would have normally had, is another question, but I will absolutely not rack up thousands of dollars without consenting for it. Or does this go back to your theory of people being jailed for monetary debts?

And the NYPD has only recently stated that dishonorably discharges are reason to disqualify a candidate, and thats only a recent update, it was only six months ago that they were allowing those candidates to apply with a notarized letter explaining their discharge.
This is probably because some people had good reasons for them, (or much better reasons than me), people who had children sick and were refused leave, death in the family, stuff like that.
Or were these people disgraceful cowards too? Yeah, I bet they're shameful communists along with the rest of us too irresponsible to finish our "contract".

Yeah if I want to become a prosecutor, or a politician, or anything in public service, this will be something considered a mark of poor character and probably inhibit any inroads to such careers. But in the real world (private world where things aren't standardized, and little pieces of paper don't mean ****), people don't give a flying **** what you got discharged for when you were 18 or 20, they care who it is sitting in front of them and what they're capable of doing now.
Its sad kind of, there are so many people that build such great lives and lead distinguished careers, and walk around with a dignity, grace, and presence after serving for decades, in wars and peace. And then there are those that can't accept the fact, that the military is not the marker of a man, nor is it the only thing powerful you can do in this world. And neither are soldiers the only ones brave, or the only ones patriotic. They have earned their status, just like everyone else has to earn theirs.

And so, I fully reject any haters or just plain old grumpy men, who can't accept the fact that the ARMY gave an out to those that were not worthy of their fraternity. I thank God every day there are sensible men in this world, and one day, those sensible men will reach out their pen and sign off on forgiveness. Maybe I don't deserve it today, but when I earn my honor, and my patriotism, and when I can carry myself with dignity and not arrogance, I bet they will agree that that paper means nothing. Maybe only to you, but not to me and not the wonderful people who have supported me in the past year.

We need to finish this patheticlly fruitless back and forth. I'll let you carry the last word, so long as it isn't filled with any more nonsense that would scare off other trainees from bailing out of a situation that could be dangerous for themselves and dangerous for others.

going AWOL isn't a disgrace to your country, staying and performing at anything less than your best is.

The reasons you put for going AWOL are not viable or accepted excuses in any branch of the armed forces. I experienced each of those during my four deployments and saw many of my brothers in arms experience the same, we toughed it out and honored our oaths to serve our country. Coward is the right term for anyone who cannot stand and face adversity. Disgrace is the appropriate term for what happens when a man or woman breaks an oath taken voluntarily in the presence of God. Communist would not be the right label for someone who deserts their voluntary obligation to service, it really has nothing to do with religious or political views.

You are right to stop posting in this forum, you no longer need legal advice and your rhetoric falls on deaf ears. You can scream from the mountain tops that you did the right thing but your DD214 says differently and in the end that is all that matters. How do you know you were not fit to be a medic? You never tried. If your efforts in the Army are any indication of how you will live your life, you can prepare to be a failure. You gave up when things got hard and ran away. You seem to be making a trend here of making uninformed decisions or just being too stubborn to listen to good advice.

Your use of vulgarity in your argument shows many things about you and is no surprise. It is a violation of this forums rules and will not be tolerated. It obviously frustrates you to learn that your actions will have such far reaching consequences. I couldn't imagine how angry I would be with myself to know that I had made such a horrible uninformed decision. I would hope that anyone thinking of making the same mistake will realize this and stick it out. The benefits far outweigh any cost that might be present now.

JFK is quoted as saying, "A young man who does not have what it takes to perform military service is not likely to have what it takes to make a living. Today's military rejects include tomorrow's hard-core unemployed." I am more apt to listen to a man that accomplished so much in his short years on this earth then to a young man that has failed to meet his obligation of service. There are many men that are discharged and lead productive lives but they are not the majority. The chips are definitely stacked against you.

I have no animosity towards you or any other deserter. I am generally just appalled at the attitudes each of you has shown when posting on this forum. It is hard to believe that anyone would have the audacity to argue that your decision was anything more than a selfish pursuit of the advancement of your own interests. I have nothing else to say on the subject, this dead horse has been beaten. .

[newyork1]

You got it, last words yours.

EDIT* I meant oth discharges not dishonorable discharges, when I was talking about the NYPD.

BTW this guy pike is a ****ing joke. He's either a recruiter or got some serious personal issues for going after people who went AWOL. he even went after a distraught wife, for her husband deserting. [url]http://forum.freeadvice.com/military-law-92/awol-back-ft-knox-pcf-418968.html[/url] I didn't realize he was the same jackass from that thread, its too bad, I almost believed him from his one good post up here.

[cyberspook]

This thread needs to be closed. It is no longer serving a purpose...