Dispute over private road

[Claireky]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Hawaii

I live in Hawaii on a private road. The road is owned by 7 landowners. At the end of our dead-end private road is a turnaround area. The landowner at the end of the road rents out her house to about 3 different families and uses the turnaround area as parking for her tenants. She only has a 2 car garage. The other 6 landowners want her to stop renting out the area because we cannot use the turnaround area. Cars and emergency vehicles have to reverse all the way down the lane because they cannot turn around at the end. We have sent her a petition demanding that she stop using the area for her private rental business but she just ignores us. Can we rightfully put up No Parking/Tow Away signs? Can the Majority do that or does all 7 landowners have to agree?

 

[154NH773]

Please clarify a few things.

1. How do 7 people "own" the road? Do you each own a piece through your property, and grant easements for others to pass; or, is there a single deed for the roadway property that is owned by all property owners with each name on the deed; or, is the roadway property in the name of an association?

2. If the roadway property is in a separate deed, what language in the deed regulates its use?

3. Is the road in a subdivision approved by a local authority, or under local zoning? If so, are there requirements for access by emergency vehicles, etc.

4. If the roadway property is in the name of an association, are there association rules for controling its use, or the ability for establishing rules?

5. Does each of the owners have any covenant in their deed requiring them to support maintenance, or requiring membership in a road association?

 

[Claireky]

We each own 1/7 of the road. It's in the deed. There is no "Association"
The City repair our potholes. But they already told me that they will not install signs since it is a private road. There is no other maintenance that is required.

 

[latigo]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Hawaii

I live in Hawaii on a private road. The road is owned by 7 landowners. At the end of our dead-end private road is a turnaround area. The landowner at the end of the road rents out her house to about 3 different families and uses the turnaround area as parking for her tenants. She only has a 2 car garage. The other 6 landowners want her to stop renting out the area because we cannot use the turnaround area. Cars and emergency vehicles have to reverse all the way down the lane because they cannot turn around at the end. We have sent her a petition demanding that she stop using the area for her private rental business but she just ignores us. Can we rightfully put up No Parking/Tow Away signs? Can the Majority do that or does all 7 landowners have to agree?

Assume that these proposed, "unofficial" " No Parking/Tow Way" signs would be standing fifteen minutes after posting them, how would any of the other abutting property owners be able to enforce them? None of you possess policing authority.

As far as the owner of the property that abuts the cul-de-sac taking in tenants, if it is in not violation of some zoning restrictions, you cannot legal interfere with her use of her property no more that she can yours.

The roadway has to lie within a political subdivision such as a county or city. So start with the proper political department and express your grievances there. There may by a means whereby the road can be dedicated to public use and thus allowing regulating its use.

There is a possible option of seeking a court injunction. But that would entail considerable expense, including a survey and legal fees.

But if you start having private vehicles towed, you are very apt to be arrested.

 

[justalayman]

a simple question:


why do you believe you have a right to control what another landowner does with their property? Would you allow her to tell you what you can and cannot do on the road?



If this situation is as messed up as it sounds with no rules being imposed either through the deeding of the road or some other agreement, there is little any of the landlowners can do to enforce their desires on any other. Nothing short of a court is even in a position to attempt to demand anything here but even then, what a court can do is likely to be quite limited.

Do you or any other owners park on the roadway? If not, why cannot you simply turn around using your driveways. If you do park on the roadway, why is it ok for you to do so but not the owner at the end?

 

[j_doyle]

Can't park there

This is an easy one 'State of Hawaii Fire Code.'

http://labor.hawaii.gov/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/State-Fire-Code-1-1-10-w-signatures.pdf

12-45.2-88 Dimensions. '... the unobstructed width of ... road shall meet County Requirements.

12-45.2-89 Turning radius. '... turning radius of ... access road shall meet County Requirements.


These are building codes. But somewhere you will find a version of them as Public Safety laws. The laws will say something about you can not restrict road access for a Fire Truck, School Bus, or block roads, public or private.

And it will say something like, any person who violates any provision of this Ordinance shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and/or fine ... .

I would call the Police and ask about this parking blocking access for fire truck, public safety access. Fire Marshals are also very concerned about this kind of thing, it might be worth a call to them too.

This is a serious problem, not just for the trucks, but also the shortest distance for for hoses. I would hate to have the car of the guy next door being used as a safety shield for a bad guy hiding from the Police.

The local volunteer fire department will likely tell you to let them stay. Mostly because they are drooling for the chance to break window glass, and perform other assorted destruction, legally. If you need to get a fire hose from fire hydrant to fire, and cars are in the way, anything is fair.




Below is my local version of the Laws for this type of thing. Not worth the read, if you are not interested.
-----------------------------------
My bit of escape the city, for the country, is a lovely floodplain in WV (FEMA flood maps are another issue.) This falls under County Code. It must be like this at my residential address too, but I knew right where to find the WV version.

Even better, it is a misdemeanor crime to park in the middle of the turn-a-round. This would allow me to let the County Police to take care of it, and no law suit required on my part.

The short version is that parking that way is a Public Safety issue. As it limits school bus, fire truck access, and is a zoning violation.

For me this would be a call to the Police, for blocking access required for Public Safety.


The answer to your question, would be found in:

-

Hampshire County, Subdivision and Land Development Ordinance, Standards for Accessibility: School Buses and/or Fire Trucks and/or Parking Spaces.

To Paraphrase:

School Buses will be able to safely pick up and discharge passengers, to turn corners and to enter and leave the subdivision while all parking spaces are occupied and without having to back up.

Fire Trucks will be able to travel to any point in a road without backing up even if all parking spaces are occupied, and can complete turn-around without having to back up more than one hundred (100) feet.

Parking Spaces are not to include the area of road required to meet width or corner radius minimums.

-

The area of the road required to meet width or corner radius minimums, is found in another section. These are County Laws. They apply to all roads, public and private.

Road dead-ends shall terminate in a turn-a-round of one hundred thirty (130) feet and a finished road diameter of one hundred twenty (120) feet.

And in the penalty section we find this. Any person who violates any provision of this Ordinance shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and upon conviction shall be fined not less than Fifty Dollars ($50.00) nor more than Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00) for each and every offense. Each day of continuing violation after notification shall constitute a separate offense under this provision.

-

In the community covenants, you are not permitted to park on the road. You are expected to have enough off-street parking for yourself and your guests.

-

This would be great fun here, a hat-trick of public safety violations. And includes a daily fine for misdemeanor acts. As a bonus, there is a 'Think of the children,' element.

 

[justalayman]

Doyle.

Please show me where that applies to a private residential roAd. The fact the section of law provided is part of the rules of the department of labor and industrial relations strongly suggests this is not applicable in this situation.

If in fact it does that would mean it would also apply to every driveway in Hawaii. I'm pretty confident it doesn't.

While I could be wrong...

 

[Claireky]

a simple question:


why do you believe you have a right to control what another landowner does with their property? Would you allow her to tell you what you can and cannot do on the road?



If this situation is as messed up as it sounds with no rules being imposed either through the deeding of the road or some other agreement, there is little any of the landlowners can do to enforce their desires on any other. Nothing short of a court is even in a position to attempt to demand anything here but even then, what a court can do is likely to be quite limited.

Do you or any other owners park on the roadway? If not, why cannot you simply turn around using your driveways. If you do park on the roadway, why is it ok for you to do so but not the owner at the end?

The turnaround area is owned jointly by 7 landowners, it is not "her property". It is our property. If you read my post that should have been clear, sorry if it was not. The area is meant as a turnaround area for all the landowners to use. The 6 of us cannot use the area as it was intended. She is making money off of land that is partially owned by us and she does not have our permission to do so. On the contrary we have told her to return the area to its intended use which is a turnaround area. The police and the City have informed us that they cannot do anything because it is a private road and the landowners have to resolve it on their own. They said that we can put up our own signs and enforce them ourselves which means calling the tow trucks. I don't know how it is in other states, but in Hawaii if Safeway owns a piece of land and they have their supermarket and their parking lot on the land then I cannot park in their lot and go across the street to the beach. The Safeway security guards (not the police) will call the tow company and tow me away. It's the basically same thing . No one on the street parks on the private lane because if we did the garbage truck and other large vehicles would not be able to pass.

 

[justalayman]

Claireky;3289743]The turnaround area is owned jointly by 7 landowners, it is not "her property". It is our property.

it is HER property. It is also YOUR property. You each own an indivisible 1/7 interest in the whole. That means each of you have equal rights to the entire property addressed in the deed.

The area is meant as a turnaround area for all the landowners to use.

and that is stated where? In the deed? In some associated rules or regulations?


.

She is making money off of land that is partially owned by us and she does not have our permission to do so.

and your point is? My point is she can do that whether anybody else agrees with her.

On the contrary we have told her to return the area to its intended use which is a turnaround area

.again, that is documented where?

The police and the City have informed us that they cannot do anything because it is a private road and the landowners have to resolve it on their own.

as I suspected.

They said that we can put up our own signs and enforce them ourselves which means calling the tow trucks.

No, you cannot have her cars or cars of her guests towed from HER property.

I don't know how it is in other states, but in Hawaii if Safeway owns a piece of land and they have their supermarket and their parking lot on the land then I cannot park in their lot and go across the street to the beach.

that has nothing to do with your situation though.

The Safeway security guards (not the police) will call the tow company and tow me away. It's the basically same thing .

No, it is nothing like your situation. To make it comparable, it would be if you owned the Safeway along with the current owner and you did not like people parking on the Safeway lot/

No one on the street parks on the private lane because if we did the garbage truck and other large vehicles would not be able to pass.

and you can't turn around on a street wide enough to run a garbage truck down the road? Sounds like some driving lessons would be a great help.

They said that we can put up our own signs and enforce them ourselves which means calling the tow trucks.

ask them if they will provide you defense counsel if the neighbor or her tenants sue you and if they will provide legal counsel if you are charged with a criminal act. I suspect they will politely decline. I suggest you do not take their advice seriously. It can get you into a world of problems. Towing her car or her tenants would be no different than she hiring a tow truck to tow your car from your driveway.

 

[154NH773]

I agree with justalayman.

You say;

We each own 1/7 of the road. It's in the deed.

How is that possible? Are you each named in the deed? What happens if one of you moves? Have you read the deed?

Without knowing the actual wording of the deed, it is impossible to accurately advise you

Also, it is probable that even though it is a private road, there may be conditions set by the local or state regulations on approved sub-divisions for size and access of turn-arounds. I would advise talking to a local attorney who practices land use law.

If you all equally own the roadway, and no conditions are specified in the deed, you may individually or collectively go to court to quiet title, and a judge will decide what is a reasonable and safe use of the property.

It is highly unusual that

The City repair our potholes.

on a private road. Other taxpayers of the city may object to their taxes going to support a private enterprise. I know I would complain.