good fences/ bad neighbors?

[edgeman]

What is the name of your state? Maine

I thought good fences made GOOD neighbors:

A portion of the my property line with an abutting neighbor is a low fieldstone wall as shown on his survey plan and built along the line of the original 18th century King’s Grant that divided the town into parcels. Along a section of the wall that is about 200 feet long was an 8 foot wide opening that may have been used by the original farmer years ago. At this location my land is largely wooded and the abutter’s land includes his back yard.

Last fall, in working on my land, I moved 2 large rocks that were nearby on my land into the opening and effectively closed the gap in the wall. The rocks are no taller than the wall and I was careful to align them with the outside face of the wall so as to not extend into my neighbors yard.

I was also careful not to step into his yard. My intent was to move the rocks out of my way and use them in the wall to mark the property line, just like the existing wall. It also keeps my dog from wandering into their yard when we go on walks.

Now my neighbor has demanded that I remove the rocks. He reasons that there was no previous wall in that location and that my rocks are encroaching on his land. I should add that the rocks were placed by a large excavator while clearing a path to do other work on my property. They will not be easy to move.

Have I broken some common rule about stone walls?

If his claim is correct, I will move the rocks back. But how far back on my land is needed to be legal; half the wall thickness or completely out of the wall? Can I still block the opening if there is no right-of-way?What is the name of your state?

 

[ShyCat]

Duplicate post

https://forum.freeadvice.com/showthread.php?p=1934762#post1934762

 

[VictorD]

What is the name of your state? Maine

Have I broken some common rule about stone walls?

If his claim is correct, I will move the rocks back. But how far back on my land is needed to be legal; half the wall thickness or completely out of the wall? Can I still block the opening if there is no right-of-way?What is the name of your state?

I'm not a lawyer, so this is not legal advice:

As I understand it, a property line has no thickness. Everything is on either one side or the other (or both). That would apply to the rocks that you moved. From your description, it sounds like they straddle the property line and are therefore partially on your neighbor's property. (I'm assuming that the property line follows the center of the wall.) Therefore, he has a right to ask/tell you to move them.

Unless there are specific local zoning regulations stating otherwise, you just have to move the rocks so that they are 100% on your side of the line.

But what about the 100's of other rocks that are in the existing stone wall? You didn't put them there and neither did your neighbor, so that's not a problem. Anyway, there might be some kind of historic preservation laws/ordinances that would prevent either of you from destroying an existing wall.

Absolutely, you can block the opening, as long as you follow local zoning and as long as everything you build is on your land.

 

[edgeman]

Thanks, Victor D. I follow your reasoning--just not sure what is customary given that this issue has probably been around for hundreds of years. Maybe the wall is owned in common: no one owns it and both parties own it, or something like that. Not sure what that would accomplish, though. Anyone else want to weigh in?

ps - I did post this a while back with no replies except one advising me to call a lawyer so I though I'd try again. No offense meant.

 

[Zigner]

Asking again doesn't change things. As I said before:

Due to the nature of your problem, I would suggest a consultation with a local real estate attorney. It won't cost much, and you'll get a better response.

 

[edgeman]

Thank you, Zigner. I get your point.

I'm new to this forum and am truly interested in hearing what people think about this issue.

 

[154NH773]

I've done a lot of research on boundaries, easements , etc. It doesn't make me an expert, but I agree 100% with VictorD.
The only way to be sure where the line actually is, is to have it surveyed. Stonewalls wander around slightly and the deed description probably does not say that the line follows the wall; it probably begins at some point and ends at some point. You own, and can usually do, whatever you want on your side of the line.

 

[edgeman]

Thank you, 154NH773. But just to be clear, the neighbors deed description is limited to a subdivision lot number and reference to a 1979 subdivision survey plan. The survey plan clearly shows the stone wall as the boundary line. (And the 8 ft opening is not shown at all.) My deed also refers to the stone wall.

To me, the issue is not about how straight or crooked the line is; the wall IS the line and it has thickness. Victor's point is that I own half the wall. Ok, but I question whether I jointly own all of the wall with the neighbor, or we both own none of the wall? There must be some precendent on this question.

 

[seniorjudge]

Thank you, 154NH773. But just to be clear, the neighbors deed description is limited to a subdivision lot number and reference to a 1979 subdivision survey plan. The survey plan clearly shows the stone wall as the boundary line. (And the 8 ft opening is not shown at all.) My deed also refers to the stone wall.

To me, the issue is not about how straight or crooked the line is; the wall IS the line and it has thickness. Victor's point is that I own half the wall. Ok, but I question whether I jointly own all of the wall with the neighbor, or we both own none of the wall? There must be some precendent on this question.

Tell me...is your state a metes and bounds state or a range and township state?

However you answer will determine the solution to your problem.

 

[seniorjudge]

Tell me...is your state a metes and bounds state or a range and township state?

However you answer will determine the solution to your problem.

I will be busting some predatory borrowers (collections, foreclosures, evictions) for the next couple of days. I MAY not be able to get back to you soon.

But I do want your answer.

You need to ask my question to the lawyer zig told you to hire.

If he doesn't IMMEDIATELY know the answer, hire another lawyer.

 

[edgeman]

Thank you, Senior Judge. Maine is a metes and bounds state.

From what I've learned so far, I'm beginning to believe that I own only to the center of the wall and that anything that is placed beyond the centerline would be encroaching, even if it is rocks that align with the exisitng wall.

I look forward to your response.

 

[seniorjudge]

Thank you, 154NH773. But just to be clear, the neighbors deed description is limited to a subdivision lot number and reference to a 1979 subdivision survey plan. The survey plan clearly shows the stone wall as the boundary line. (And the 8 ft opening is not shown at all.) My deed also refers to the stone wall.

To me, the issue is not about how straight or crooked the line is; the wall IS the line and it has thickness. Victor's point is that I own half the wall. Ok, but I question whether I jointly own all of the wall with the neighbor, or we both own none of the wall? There must be some precendent on this question.

(Simply for the purposes of the examples below, I am assuming that the wall runs northerly and southerly. I am also assuming your land is on the west of the wall and the neighbor's land is on the east of the wall.)

The neighbor's boundary line is defined by the subdivision plat. I would be very much surprised if that plat showed the rock wall. That means, then, that his boundary line is a surveyed line. (A surveyor drew the plat.) The rock wall does not (necessarily) serve as a boundary line for his property.

But your property may indeed have as its eastern boundary line the rock wall. It would depend on the survey of the King's Grant; you must know where that grant line is. (That was why I wanted to know how your state legally described land. If you had section, township, and range descriptions, the answer would've been different.)

A survey by a competent surveyor is needed, if for nothing else, to find that boundary line.

If the rocks are on your side, then you have done nothing wrong. If you put the rocks on the neighbor's land, then you have trespassed.

So, your next step is to have a surveyor find your boundary line.

Post back with results.

 

[seniorjudge]

"Good fences make good neighbors" is probably one of the most misunderstood phrases in America. Robert Frost (and/or his narrator) did not believe that; he believed just the opposite. The cranky neighbor is the one who believed it.



Mending Wall
By Robert Frost

SOMETHING there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun;
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.
The work of hunters is another thing:
I have come after them and made repair
Where they have left not one stone on stone,
But they would have the rabbit out of hiding,
To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean,
No one has seen them made or heard them made,
But at spring mending-time we find them there.
I let my neighbor know beyond the hill;
And on a day we meet to walk the line
And set the wall between us once again.
We keep the wall between us as we go.
To each the boulders that have fallen to each.
And some are loaves and some so nearly balls
We have to use a spell to make them balance:
"Stay where you are until our backs are turned!"
We wear our fingers rough with handling them.
Oh, just another kind of outdoor game,
One on a side. It comes to little more:
He is all pine and I am apple-orchard.
My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.
He only says, "Good fences make good neighbors."
Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder
If I could put a notion in his head:
"Why do they make good neighbors? Isn't it
Where there are cows? But here there are no cows.
Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down!" I could say "Elves" to him,
But it's not elves exactly, and I'd rather
He said it for himself. I see him there,
Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.
He moves in darkness as it seems to me,
Not of woods only and the shade of trees.
He will not go behind his father's saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, "Good fences make good neighbors."

 

[edgeman]

Thank you again, seniorjudge. It was great to read Robert Frost's poem again with a different point of view. I understand from your explanation how we may in fact have different boundary lines. In response, I'd like to add the following:

The approved subdivision plan, signed by the planning board, stamped by the surveyor and registered in the courthouse actually shows the boundary is the stone wall as indicated by a string of connected small ovals and called out on the legend. Sections of the property line where the stone wall is less in evidence are also shown as a wire fence (a line with periodic X's). This is the way things were done in small towns (pop. 488) in Maine in 1979.

I have consulted 3 surveyors, including the head of the Maine State Surveyors Licensing Complaint Board. All felt this is a known difficult issue, but customarily the centerline of the wall is considered to be the property line.

Based upon this, I have decided to move the rocks so that they are on my side of the centerline of the wall. At least that reduces the likelihood that I am trespassing. We'll see what happens next. If that is not satisfactory to my neighbor, I'll proceed from there.

 

[seniorjudge]

...

I have consulted 3 surveyors, including the head of the Maine State Surveyors Licensing Complaint Board. All felt this is a known difficult issue, but customarily the centerline of the wall is considered to be the property line.

Based upon this, I have decided to move the rocks so that they are on my side of the centerline of the wall. At least that reduces the likelihood that I am trespassing. We'll see what happens next. If that is not satisfactory to my neighbor, I'll proceed from there.

...

The surveyors are, of course, right and you have made a wise choice of action.