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"good neighbor" fence / attempt to defraud?

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nsmaby

Junior Member
What is the name of your state? CA.

Hello,

I have a relatively small, but annoying dispute with our neighbor.

Late last year, we got a knock on our door from a man who introduced himself as the "owner" of the property bordering half of the back of our lot. (this lot had a large home being built, nearing the end of the construction process). He said he wanted to put a new fence up, and wanted to know if we wanted to share the cost. At the time, I initially said I wasn't sure. We talked some more. I asked him about his family and introduced my family to him. He did seem a bit guarded about talking about his family and when I asked him when he was going to move in, he never answered the question. I figured maybe he was just private about those things. I said, I was looking forward to being neighbors and that I was sure we could work something out. I told him to contact me when he got the quote for the fence and then I could decide whether to split it with him. (he had already had new fences put in on the side property lines). I found out later, that he also talked with two other neighbors who also bordered the back of his property line. They also thought he represented himself as a neighbor to be.

About a month later, he contacted me with the quote and I verbally agreed to split it with him (still believing he was to be our neighbor). The fence got built shortly thereafter, but he never came back for the money. So I decided the good thing to do was to go give him the check. However, when I walked around to the front of his property, I saw that there was a "for sale" sign, and that a staging company was setting up furniture inside.

This disturbed me. So I did some checking. It turns out that the property bill doesn't get sent to him, and in fact, there was no legal record of him being owner of the property that I could find. So I called the listing agent for the property, and she stated that this man was a "co-investor" in the property with the couple that the property tax bill went to(whose address was 500 miles away from the property). It isn't until March 10, 2006 that his name appears on the records for the property, when he and the other owners took out a $200K mortgage together on the property (very close to the date of putting the home on the market).

The sale of the home is now pending ($2.2M list price), and he has now contacted us for our portion of the fence cost. He claims in the letter to us that his plans changed and that he got a new job and that this forced him to move and not live in the property (which he claims he originally planned to do). I, however, suspect that he never intended to move into the property (thinking back on our initial conversation and with the "co-investor" arrangement). It would of course be very hard to prove one way or the other?

What should I do? I really don't want to pay HIM the money for the fence as I feel he purposefully misrepresented himself as the owner (mentioning nothing about co-investors), and implied that he was to be our neighbor. I'd rather pay the new owners of the property as they more than paid for the fence in their purchase price.

Is it important that I respond in writing to his letter, stating my concerns about his misrepresentation? Is it important to do something before the sale completes?

Thanks for your advice.

Niels
 


panzertanker

Senior Member
nsmaby said:
What is the name of your state? CA.

Hello,

I have a relatively small, but annoying dispute with our neighbor.

Late last year, we got a knock on our door from a man who introduced himself as the "owner" of the property bordering half of the back of our lot. (this lot had a large home being built, nearing the end of the construction process). He said he wanted to put a new fence up, and wanted to know if we wanted to share the cost. At the time, I initially said I wasn't sure. We talked some more. I asked him about his family and introduced my family to him. He did seem a bit guarded about talking about his family and when I asked him when he was going to move in, he never answered the question. I figured maybe he was just private about those things. I said, I was looking forward to being neighbors and that I was sure we could work something out. I told him to contact me when he got the quote for the fence and then I could decide whether to split it with him. (he had already had new fences put in on the side property lines). I found out later, that he also talked with two other neighbors who also bordered the back of his property line. They also thought he represented himself as a neighbor to be.

About a month later, he contacted me with the quote and I verbally agreed to split it with him (still believing he was to be our neighbor). The fence got built shortly thereafter, but he never came back for the money. So I decided the good thing to do was to go give him the check. However, when I walked around to the front of his property, I saw that there was a "for sale" sign, and that a staging company was setting up furniture inside.

This disturbed me. So I did some checking. It turns out that the property bill doesn't get sent to him, and in fact, there was no legal record of him being owner of the property that I could find. So I called the listing agent for the property, and she stated that this man was a "co-investor" in the property with the couple that the property tax bill went to(whose address was 500 miles away from the property). It isn't until March 10, 2006 that his name appears on the records for the property, when he and the other owners took out a $200K mortgage together on the property (very close to the date of putting the home on the market).

The sale of the home is now pending ($2.2M list price), and he has now contacted us for our portion of the fence cost. He claims in the letter to us that his plans changed and that he got a new job and that this forced him to move and not live in the property (which he claims he originally planned to do). I, however, suspect that he never intended to move into the property (thinking back on our initial conversation and with the "co-investor" arrangement). It would of course be very hard to prove one way or the other?

What should I do? I really don't want to pay HIM the money for the fence as I feel he purposefully misrepresented himself as the owner (mentioning nothing about co-investors), and implied that he was to be our neighbor. I'd rather pay the new owners of the property as they more than paid for the fence in their purchase price.

Is it important that I respond in writing to his letter, stating my concerns about his misrepresentation? Is it important to do something before the sale completes?

Thanks for your advice.

Niels
Where is the copy of your contract with this person that states who pays how much and when???
 

nsmaby

Junior Member
There is no written contract

We never signed or put together any written contract. All communications and agreements were verbal.

I, myself do not want to lie, and if asked if there was a verbal agreement, I would have to state that there was but that it was made under false pretenses.

I don't know if he were to take us to small claims court if he could get the money from us?

That's why I don't know whether or not it is a good idea to respond to him in writing. If I respond at all, am I giving written confirmation of our initial verbal agreement? But if I state that I think he attempted to defraud us in writing, is that good and does that protect us? (rather than waiting to do that when/if he takes us to small claims?).

Can he put a lien on our property base on the letter of request that he just sent?
 

nsmaby

Junior Member
Clarification on "contract"

I should clarify that the only thing in writing is the letter I received from him and a copy of the receipt from the fence company (also sent with the letter). The receipt is itemized so that the fence cost is split by each shared neighboring border.
 

rmet4nzkx

Senior Member
Look up California Evidence code 622-624, this applies to your verbal contract and his breaking it by virtue of his conduct. Good thing you didn't pay him for the fence, hopefully the other neighbors didn't either.
 

nsmaby

Junior Member
Cal Evidence Code 622-624

What I find that may be relevant:

622. The facts recited in a written instrument are conclusively
presumed to be true as between the parties thereto, or their
successors in interest; but this rule does not apply to the recital
of a consideration.


623. Whenever a party has, by his own statement or conduct,
intentionally and deliberately led another to believe a particular
thing true and to act upon such belief, he is not, in any litigation
arising out of such statement or conduct, permitted to contradict it.


However, doesn't he cover himself as long as he sticks to his story about the job change and that his original intent was to stay in the property?
 

Calif-IAAL-Att

Junior Member
nsmaby said:
What is the name of your state? CA.

Hello,

I have a relatively small, but annoying dispute with our neighbor.

Late last year, we got a knock on our door from a man who introduced himself as the "owner" of the property bordering half of the back of our lot. (this lot had a large home being built, nearing the end of the construction process). He said he wanted to put a new fence up, and wanted to know if we wanted to share the cost. At the time, I initially said I wasn't sure. We talked some more. I asked him about his family and introduced my family to him. He did seem a bit guarded about talking about his family and when I asked him when he was going to move in, he never answered the question. I figured maybe he was just private about those things. I said, I was looking forward to being neighbors and that I was sure we could work something out. I told him to contact me when he got the quote for the fence and then I could decide whether to split it with him. (he had already had new fences put in on the side property lines). I found out later, that he also talked with two other neighbors who also bordered the back of his property line. They also thought he represented himself as a neighbor to be.

About a month later, he contacted me with the quote and I verbally agreed to split it with him (still believing he was to be our neighbor). The fence got built shortly thereafter, but he never came back for the money. So I decided the good thing to do was to go give him the check. However, when I walked around to the front of his property, I saw that there was a "for sale" sign, and that a staging company was setting up furniture inside.

This disturbed me. So I did some checking. It turns out that the property bill doesn't get sent to him, and in fact, there was no legal record of him being owner of the property that I could find. So I called the listing agent for the property, and she stated that this man was a "co-investor" in the property with the couple that the property tax bill went to(whose address was 500 miles away from the property). It isn't until March 10, 2006 that his name appears on the records for the property, when he and the other owners took out a $200K mortgage together on the property (very close to the date of putting the home on the market).

The sale of the home is now pending ($2.2M list price), and he has now contacted us for our portion of the fence cost. He claims in the letter to us that his plans changed and that he got a new job and that this forced him to move and not live in the property (which he claims he originally planned to do). I, however, suspect that he never intended to move into the property (thinking back on our initial conversation and with the "co-investor" arrangement). It would of course be very hard to prove one way or the other?

What should I do? I really don't want to pay HIM the money for the fence as I feel he purposefully misrepresented himself as the owner (mentioning nothing about co-investors), and implied that he was to be our neighbor. I'd rather pay the new owners of the property as they more than paid for the fence in their purchase price.

Is it important that I respond in writing to his letter, stating my concerns about his misrepresentation? Is it important to do something before the sale completes?

Thanks for your advice.

Niels

My response:

What is the cost estimate for your share of the fence?

IAAL
 

nsmaby

Junior Member
Cost is not much

Our share is only $570.00, so it's certainly not worth going to court over, but, it is $570 I would rather pay to the new owner, or use for another purpose. I just don't want to pay this guy that I think is attempting to pad his profit on an investment deal by posing as a neighbor.
 

rmet4nzkx

Senior Member
nsmaby said:
What I find that may be relevant:

622. The facts recited in a written instrument are conclusively
presumed to be true as between the parties thereto, or their
successors in interest; but this rule does not apply to the recital
of a consideration.


623. Whenever a party has, by his own statement or conduct,
intentionally and deliberately led another to believe a particular
thing true and to act upon such belief, he is not, in any litigation
arising out of such statement or conduct, permitted to contradict it.


However, doesn't he cover himself as long as he sticks to his story about the job change and that his original intent was to stay in the property?
It means he cannot use it as a defense in small claims court. He would have needed a new fence to sell his house, he was just trying to increase his profit whether he lived in it or not. Obviously since his name wasn't recorded, he was spinning all along.
 

Calif-IAAL-Att

Junior Member
nsmaby said:
Our share is only $570.00, so it's certainly not worth going to court over, but, it is $570 I would rather pay to the new owner, or use for another purpose. I just don't want to pay this guy that I think is attempting to pad his profit on an investment deal by posing as a neighbor.

My response:

Then, do not respond to this gentleman, and certainly not in writing. His writing to you is, at this point, self-serving and not binding upon you. The verbal agreement you "think" you have is not a contract; i.e., it violates the Statute of Frauds [Civil Code section 1624]. For such a "contract" to be enforceable, it must be in writing, and signed by both parties.

Additionally, and in this circumstance where there is no written contract, or agreement, or memorandum of such agreement pursuant to section 1624, then Civil Code section 841becomes controlling; i.e.,

"Coterminous owners are mutually bound equally to maintain:
1. The boundaries and monuments between them;
2. The fences between them, unless one of them chooses to let his
land lie without fencing; in which case, if he afterwards incloses
it, he must refund to the other a just proportion of the value, at
that time, of any division fence made by the latter."

You tell him, verbally, that you choose "to let [your] land lie without fencing" and he has no other choice but to foot the entire bill for the fencing.

However, if it is your choice to join in the buildin of this fence because it will enhance your property, or replace something that was not "doing the job" due to age, or whatever, then you tell him that you want proof of his ownership of his land, so that you know whom is the "rightful" owner of your share of the costs.

Good luck.

IAAL

P.S. I didn't reprint CC section 1624 here because it is quite lengthy.
 

rmet4nzkx

Senior Member
Building a home to sell for 2.2M and then trying to rip off the neighbors?:rolleyes: I don't know how long the length of fence is, but it the fence built appropriate for the property? Is it wood, wire or block?
 

Calif-IAAL-Att

Junior Member
rmet4nzkx said:
Building a home to sell for 2.2M and then trying to rip off the neighbors?:rolleyes: I don't know how long the length of fence is, but it the fence built appropriate for the property? Is it wood, wire or block?

My response:

Please explain the relevance of your question? So far, our writer isn't talking about "style," rather she's only concerned with whether she should "chip in" and, if so, to whom she should pay.

In other words, at this point, who cares if it's made out of cotton?

IAAL
 

nsmaby

Junior Member
Interesting story....

So I decided to do some sleuthing.

The guys story (as unbelievable as it is) fully checks out.

I called the listing agent - who corroborated that this guy (let's call him joe) and his daughter fully intended to live there. I left my number and joe called me back....

Here is the full (entertaining and unbelievable) story:

The house from Aunt to niece back in 7/2004. They rented it for a while to the aunt's daughter who then moved out. So they decided they wanted to sell the property. It turns out that Joe is a single father of a 8th grade girl who is the god-daughter of the owners (let's call them Tim and Kathy). So Joe proposed to Tim and Kathy that they not just sell the property, but that they together go in on a real estate deal that is a win-win for all of them. Joe would oversee the building of a new home on the property and go in as a financial partner (I presume paying some of the construction costs). He would then live there with his daughter during her high school years so that she could go to the prestigious Gunn High. After 2 years it becomes his established primary residence, and he won't have to pay taxes on the cap gains.

However, towards the end of the construction (and during the construction of the fence), he got a job offer that he could not refuse from a company in Livermore, CA - which would be too much of a commute and would take time away from being with his daughter. So he at the last minute decided to move to Pleasanton, which also has good public schools for his daughter.

The co-owners of the property also corroborated the entire story. So I suspect there was no fraud or misrepresentation, and that I should pay the $570 (in spite of the way things worked out - as though he were a developer). Also, as you can imagine, the new buyer is very well off (very successful businessman) and doesn't need our chump change.

Thanks for all of your advice. The legal information on fences/borders was helpful information.

Sorry if anyone feels that I wasted their time...:eek:

Niels
 

rmet4nzkx

Senior Member
nsmaby said:
So I decided to do some sleuthing.

The guys story (as unbelievable as it is) fully checks out.

I called the listing agent - who corroborated that this guy (let's call him joe) and his daughter fully intended to live there. I left my number and joe called me back....

Here is the full (entertaining and unbelievable) story:

The house from Aunt to niece back in 7/2004. They rented it for a while to the aunt's daughter who then moved out. So they decided they wanted to sell the property. It turns out that Joe is a single father of a 8th grade girl who is the god-daughter of the owners (let's call them Tim and Kathy). So Joe proposed to Tim and Kathy that they not just sell the property, but that they together go in on a real estate deal that is a win-win for all of them. Joe would oversee the building of a new home on the property and go in as a financial partner (I presume paying some of the construction costs). He would then live there with his daughter during her high school years so that she could go to the prestigious Gunn High. After 2 years it becomes his established primary residence, and he won't have to pay taxes on the cap gains.

However, towards the end of the construction (and during the construction of the fence), he got a job offer that he could not refuse from a company in Livermore, CA - which would be too much of a commute and would take time away from being with his daughter. So he at the last minute decided to move to Pleasanton, which also has good public schools for his daughter.

The co-owners of the property also corroborated the entire story. So I suspect there was no fraud or misrepresentation, and that I should pay the $570 (in spite of the way things worked out - as though he were a developer). Also, as you can imagine, the new buyer is very well off (very successful businessman) and doesn't need our chump change.

Thanks for all of your advice. The legal information on fences/borders was helpful information.

Sorry if anyone feels that I wasted their time...:eek:

Niels
The important thing is that you don't own him anything for the fence. Your story while interesting has no relevance re any responsability for the fence. A bit strange while both hogh schools are ranked in the top ten, academics for Gunn is at 93% and Pleasanton only at approx 53% so it wasn't because of accademics unless the daughter needed to shine. The comute is doable but you get more house for the Buck in Pleasanton.
 

kthibode

Junior Member
I know that in the states of TX and KY if a neighbor puts up a fence the adjioning property owner is responsible for half the fence. But the fence has to be horse high, hog tight and bull strong. Woven wire fence with steel t-post meets this requirement and is fairly cheap.I fenced off 2 acres at about $400. so depending on how long the fence row is and the cost of these materials you may only be paying him a very small amount of money if the jerk takes you to court.
 

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