Neighbor blocking water flow

[coachb]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Michigan

I am glad i found this site! I recently bought a 3 acre property that is in a path that water flows (heavy rains and spring run-off) from other properties, across mine, and then across my neighbors and on into a wetland.

We built a pond on the property that fills with the spring run-off and rains. We didn't change how water flows onto our property, nor did we change how or where it flows off of our property. our neighbor down flow was very upset that we added a pond, and claimed that this would flood her property. we tried to explain that we did not change the volume of water, and in fact, controlled the flow so less would go on her property. She won't listen and has now decided to build a berm that will block the water leaving our lot. This will flood our lot and make it a big swamp. What can I do? We are trying to again talk to her, but I doubt it will go anywhere.

 

[drewguy]

You can sue.

Michigan uses the natural flow rule, which means that you aren't responsible for any natural flow to the downhill property. And she can't prevent it. However, the fact that you built a pond may mean you've altered the natural flow. I understand the point that the total amount of water may be the same, but keep in mind that this may mean that there's more flow during peak rain periods instead of more diffuse flow that could be more readily absorbed by the land.

http://law.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1020&context=expresso

 

[coachb]

Thanks for the quick reply. Since I might have altered the flow, what can I do? I can't fill in the pond and recreate the original flow (this is what she wants).

 

[justalayman]

I can't fill in the pond and recreate the original flow (this is what she wants).

why can't you return the land to what it was?

and is there water all the time in the run off channel and is there any standing water (originally)

and where does the water drain to?

 

[coachb]

This is land that we are going to build on. We have dug the pond to be part of our retirement home. filling it in and returning it to a spring boggy area doesn't make sense (plus costing thousands of dollars). A foot of water used to stand on the lot (and onto part of hers) all spring, until early June. By then, the ground would dry up enough for the water to disappear. This was the situation of the lot when we bought it.

the water flows across our lot from the surrounding fields and woods, and then across her lot in the spring when there is a big rain and the snow melts. It used to collect on our lot and flow across hers. It does not flow all year. It still responds the same way now that the pond is built. We have had twice the amount of average rain this spring, so it has been flowing more. She claims that this is because of our pond.

after the pond flows across her lot, it goes into her pond, and then flows out of the back of her pond and goes into a large natural wetland.

 

[drewguy]

Explain to her she can't just block all the water coming from your lot. Establish that first. Then discuss with her more productive ways than building berms and then channels around the berms and then more berms. Perhaps you can get her to build an effective channel to her pond instead of a berm. Perhaps you can contribute to it.

A lawsuit is going to be expensive for both of you, and you run the risk of having to fill back in your pond.

 

[coachb]

Thanks,
We are trying to contact her again and see where talking goes. I have felt like we have tried this before, but now my wife is charging in, so maybe there will be a better result. I will update as soon as she has contacted us and we hear her feedback.

 

[justalayman]

Yes you can return it to the natural condition. These folks may help you

DEQ - Department of Environmental Quality

You may have a wetland as defined by Michigan. If so, what you did could cost you a lot of money and problems. What you did, if this is considered a wetland, it illegal.

 

[coachb]

We had permits to build the pond, which is 1/2 and acre and 15 feet deep. It cost 30K to build, and would cost about that to fill it. It was not a wetland. We worked with a local environmental company, ETC, to make sure everything was fine. It was just a low spot that collected water for a short period of the year (3 months).

I am not planning to return it to its original condition. That would defeat the reason we bought the property. We wanted land that we could build a pond on and build a house. I am trying to come up with approaches so that I can work with my neighbor to find a way that we can both be satisfied. i hope to avoid court for both of our sakes, but am trying to understand the law behind this type of disagreement.

the link to bepress was very helpful. thank you Drewguy. It gave me lots to think about from both my and her perspective.

 

[justalayman]

You got a permit from whom?

Unless it was the state of Michigan, nobody did a wetlands survey to determine if it was a wetlands or not. From your description alone, there is a very good chance it was a wetland:

returning it to a spring boggy
water flows across our lot
It used to collect on our lot
A foot of water used to stand on the lot (and onto part of hers) all spring, until early June.

btw; that last one is in contrast to this one the one about 3 months:

collected water for a short period of the year (3 months).

btw; land does not have to have surface water to be considered a wetland.

but am trying to understand the law behind this type of disagreement.

If this was not a wetlands as defined by the state, it is very simple. Neither of you can take any action to alter the natural flow of the water so that it would affect any other property. In other words, she cannot block the flow so it would back up on your property. So, what you do is tell her (via mail CRRR) to remove the impediment to the flow. If she fails, you go to court and seek an injunction ordering her to remove the impediment. Not a big deal.


Just for the fun of it, I went to Michigans wetlands map to look around my area. They have areas listed as wetlands near me that never have standing water on them. A few I would never have guessed to be wetlands. If you would like to view your area, here is the link to the map:

Wetlands Map Search Page


Now, if you do not have a wetland, tell the neighbor to stop and if she refuses, take court action. If you had a wetland, I would tread lightly because if she or the courts were to discover this, you may be filling that $30k hole back in again.

 

[coachb]

Thanks for the great resource and advice. I looked on the wetland site and found that we are not a wetland, but she is. I wonder if she had the permits to dig her pond? You have given me so great stuff to think about. Thanks justalayman! I tend to charge in. kind of a bull in a china shop. Not the best approach for this situation.

 

[draph94]

Either this lady with the lot next door is just trying to scare you or she doesn't know what she's talking about.

If you can wait to build your house a couple more years, things might work out naturally for you.

If she goes ahead with the berm to block the flow from your property onto hers, the result is pretty simple to speculate: You have a flooded lot, and she has a dry or a much lower water level in her pond. Once she sees the result of her berm, she'll have to decide if it was really worth it in this feeble attempt to establish control over you. ...and she will be spending money to put the berm up and then take it down - you'll have the last laugh.

Does the lady have her house built yet? I'm sure she'll love enjoying sitting out in her back yard with all the smells, insects, snakes, and other varmints that your extra-flooded lot will attract given it will take so much longer to dry up every year.

From a mechanical engineer's point of view (not civil engineering, but principles of flow mechanics still apply), ponds do not disrupt natural flow any more than dams do. Once the pond/lake fills up with water, the "spillover" is equal to what the previous natural flow was. Of course, if enough people create ponds and lakes along the flow line, and the evaporation and water usage from those lakes exceed the total volume that flows in a season, downstream areas would dry up where a stream once existed. That is what is happening in CA, I believe, where municipalities are damming up streams to make reservoirs to serve their city's water needs, while the downstream farmers now have a dry stream bed with which to irrigate their crops.

 

[12345672]

dralph94,

Do you really think it would be acceptable for the OP to allow their property to be made a swamp by the neighbor?

coachb,

As long as you had the proper permits and did not disrupt the neighbor's pond, there probably isn't much the neighbor can do unless the design of your pond results in significantly altering the downstream flow. A pond can alter the timing of peak water flows, but should not cause a problem with too much water flowing downstream unless the pond fails. Usually the bigger problem is with failing to maintain a minimal flow during dry periods.

Allowing the neighbor to build a berm and turning you property into a swamp is not a good option.

 

[coachb]

My wife is supposed to meet with her next weekend to see if they can work something out. We have contacted a lawyer just in case it doesn't. She (the neighbor) has added a couple of feet to the berm that is blocking the flow off our land. Luckily, our lot will not flood until next winter/spring. Our lawyer said that we need to submit papers by mid July if we want to get this taken care of before then.

She built her house two years ago and tried to sell it last year (before we built the pond). We are not building for another year. I agree that I don't want to let our lot flood (and the neighboring horse path) just to prove a point.