Can an ebay SELLER sue me?

[ramoanstick]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Illinois

Long story;

So I won an auction on eBay for a computer. ($212 inc. shipping) The item was described as NEW with the following description; "A brand-new, unused, unopened, undamaged item in its original packaging (where packaging is applicable). Packaging should be the same as what is found in a retail store, unless the item is handmade or was packaged by the manufacturer in non-retail packaging, such as an unprinted box or plastic bag."

Well long story short after 3 weeks and many many calls and emails (which were ignored) to the seller and his mother. The MOTHER finally shipped it. I received it 25 days after my payment was made. Her adult SON was the seller. (His eBay & PayPal accounts) When I received the laptop it was in very used condition and locked with the owners password (wasn't provided). I tried contacting them, via phone and email, they didn't respond. So I opened a PayPal dispute. I won the dispute and the seller was found at fault because they didn't respond at all to the dispute for over 2 weeks and they were found to have lied about the condition, previous usage, and shipping.

Meanwhile, as this was purchased as a gift. So I cleared (reformatted) the laptop and reinstalled windows and gave it as a gift as originally intended.

Now because PayPal refunded my money the MOTHER is demanding the product back (remember it was given as a gift) Furthermore I called PayPal and explained the situation and PayPal specifically told me due to the circumstances and the seller being at fault the return of the item is NOT necessary under their terms of service, the case was decided by binding arbitration per TOS . The mother is now threatening to sue me.

FWIW: The amount of time and money I spent putting the computer back to NEW condition both in parts and labor (I do computer repair as a side job and am A+ certified.) before giving as a gift is worth more than the sale price of the laptop, after having to purchase a new copy of Windoze ;P and my labor.

My questions;

1. I have read for small claims it needs to be filed in the defendants jurisdiction. I am in IL she is in MA. So she would have to come to me?

2. Can she even sue me as she was not the seller, the only part she played in the transaction was taking the package to the post office. It is her sons laptop. His ebay account and his PayPal account. He is a legal adult too.

3. If she did file suit what are the chances of her getting a judgment against me?

Thanks for any and all responses!

 

[Zigner]

You should have returned the item. Why would you think you could keep the money AND the computer?

 

[ramoanstick]

keeping the item???

"Furthermore I called PayPal and explained the situation and PayPal specifically told me due to the circumstances and the seller being at fault the return of the item is NOT necessary under their terms of service, the case was decided by binding arbitration per TOS."

Because of what PayPal told me.

I am not KEEPING the item it was purchased specifically and given as a gift.

 

[justalayman]

well, here is the section of paypal's rules that seems to apply:

Comply with PayPal’s shipping requests in a timely manner. For Significantly Not as Described (SNAD) Claims, PayPal may require you to ship the item back to the Seller - or to PayPal - or to a third party at your expense, and to provide proof of delivery.

For transactions that total less than $250, proof of delivery is confirmation that can be viewed online and includes: the delivery address, delivery date, and the URL to the shipping company’s web site if you’ve selected “Other” in the shipping drop down menu. For transactions that total $250 or more, you must get signature confirmation of delivery.

Claim Resolution Process. Once a Dispute has been escalated to a Claim, PayPal will make a final decision in favor of the buyer or the Seller. You may be asked to provide receipts, third party evaluations, police reports, or anything else that PayPal specifies. PayPal retains full discretion to make a final decision in favor of the buyer or the Seller based on any criteria PayPal deems appropriate. In the event that PayPal makes a final decision in favor of the buyer or Seller, each party must comply with PayPal’s decision. PayPal will generally require the buyer to ship an item that the buyer claims is Significantly Not as Described back to the Seller (at the buyer’s expense), and PayPal will generally require a Seller to accept the item back and refund the buyer the full purchase price plus original shipping costs. In the event a Seller loses a Claim, the Seller will not receive a refund on his or her PayPal or eBay fees associated with the transaction. If you lose a Significantly Not as Described Claim because the item you sold is counterfeit, you will be required to provide a full refund to the buyer and you will not receive the item back (it will be destroyed).

If you have something else to support your claim of a binding arbitration, especially one which allows you to retain the disputed property, please provide it.

As it stands, I found nothing that would allow you to keep the product.

The fact you still gifted it to somebody would prove you still realize a value in the product.

I suspect that the seller has recourse through paypal and will have no need to sue you.

 

[justalayman]

I am not KEEPING the item it was purchased specifically and given as a gift.

that is you keeping the item.

the more I thing about this, unless you can support your claim the seller was bound by some arbitration, this is starting to look like a criminal manner as well as the civil action.

 

[ramoanstick]

...PayPal will GENERALLY require the buyer to ship an item that the buyer claims is Significantly Not as Described back to the Seller (at the buyer’s expense...)

Whohoo! Found out how to use the quotes!

All I can really say is what was told to me by the PayPal representative when I called, so I would assume that the generally kicks in here. Yes, I know what happens when you ASSume

Give me a sec to try and find the arbitration part of TOS. Again going off the PayPal rep here.

OK so if I should have sent it back...

The amount of time and money I spent putting the computer back to NEW condition both in parts and labor...is worth more than the sale price of the laptop.

Honestly, I am not trying to get something for nothing, but I also have my time and money invested in the laptop and if I were to send it back after my work I would basically be out over $200 in product and labor.

Sorry, forgot to mention the kicker, the woman wants the laptop returned in the same condition as it was shipped. Meaning I would have to try and do a data recovery after a format and clean install of the OS to attempt to get the docs back which is more of my time.

 

[antrc170]

you need to return the laptop to the seller, just because you gave it as a gift to someone doesn't mean you get to keep the item. you filed a valid paypal dispute becasue the seller misrepresented the item fair enough, but if he returns the money you return the product. regardless of paypals policy on the return the law is going to demand it.

as fas as court standing goes, the seller would genrally need to file the suit and not his mother

 

[ramoanstick]

binding arbitrition

OK found the BINDING ARBITRATION agreement

14.2 Arbitration. For any claim (excluding claims for injunctive or other equitable relief) where the total amount of the award sought is less than $10,000.00 USD, the party requesting relief may elect to resolve the dispute in a cost effective manner through binding non-appearance-based arbitration. If a party elects arbitration, that party will initiate such arbitration through an established alternative dispute resolution (ADR) provider mutually agreed upon by the parties. The ADR provider and the parties must comply with the following rules: a) the arbitration shall be conducted by telephone, online and/or be solely based on written submissions, the specific manner shall be chosen by the party initiating the arbitration; b) the arbitration shall not involve any personal appearance by the parties or witnesses unless otherwise mutually agreed by the parties; and c) any judgment on the award rendered by the arbitrator may be entered in any court of competent jurisdiction.

Based on what the rep told me this did enter non- appearance binding arbitration and it was determined my money would be refunded WITHOUT return of the product.

 

[ramoanstick]

regardless of paypals policy on the return the law is going to demand it.

Can you please provide a statute where this supersedes binding arbitration?

 

[justalayman]

Whohoo! Found out how to use the quotes!

All I can really say is what was told to me by the PayPal representative when I called, so I would assume that the generally kicks in here. Yes, I know what happens when you ASSume

Give me a sec to try and find the arbitration part of TOS. Again going off the PayPal rep here.

OK so if I should have sent it back...



Honestly, I am not trying to get something for nothing, but I also have my time and money invested in the laptop and if I were to send it back after my work I would basically be out over $200 in product and labor.

Sorry, forgot to mention the kicker, the woman wants the laptop returned in the same condition as it was shipped. Meaning I would have to try and do a data recovery after a format and clean install of the OS to attempt to get the docs back which is more of my time.

your time and money spent on the computer, especially after you discovered it was not as advertised and filed a dispute, is your own problem.'

and yes, the seller can demand the computer be returned in the same condition. You can likely be held liable for any alterations or loss of information on the computer when sent to you. A reasonable defense to that would be that if you had retained the computer, she would have lost that information anyway so she willingly gave it up.

If I were you, I would send her what you originally agreed to pay and be done with this. It isn't worth the couple hundred dollars for what might come of this.

 

[justalayman]

OK found the BINDING ARBITRATION agreement



Based on what the rep told me this did enter non- appearance binding arbitration and it was determined my money would be refunded WITHOUT return of the product.

that was under the section of "disputes with paypal"

that would mean if you have a problem with paypal (not any other party), those are the rules you are bound to concerning that dispute resolution. It does not apply to seller and buyer disputes with each other.

 

[ramoanstick]

@ justalayman

It isn't worth the couple hundred dollars for what might come of this.

I agree with you about something bad coming of this if she / he decides to sue. However, when I filed the dispute I just thought they would take like $50 or something off the price for the item being materially different rather than refund the entire price. I am NOT trying to screw the seller or anything I just want a fair transaction, without having to worry about getting the product back and returning it to original condition.

Yes, maybe I jumped the gun when it didn't arrive as described and fixed it and gave as a gift before finding the outcome of the dispute.

Ok, so new question, do you think it would be unreasonable to offer to make a payment for the laptop minus a certain amount for the item not being in new condition? If so what do you think a reasonable deduction would be.

Thanks for your insights!

 

[Mass_Shyster]

Can you please provide a statute where this supersedes binding arbitration?

That's not going to be statutory. You would find it in the constitution and caselaw.

If, as you stated, Paypal's agreement permits you to keep the item that you didn't pay for, then you would want to show that evidence to the court.

To answer your question: There does not appear to be anything that would prevent the seller from filing in Massachusetts Small Claims court. In that case, you would be obliged to respond appropriately, or potentially face a default judgment.

It is my opinion that you are wrongfully keeping the seller's property. I will not assist you any further in keeping it.

 

[justalayman]

Ok, so new question, do you think it would be unreasonable to offer to make a payment for the laptop minus a certain amount for the item not being in new condition?

I believe that would be a reasonable attempt at resolving the issue but you really had to know that you were not going to get a new computer for a couple hundred bucks, at least one that isn't stolen property.

If so what do you think a reasonable deduction would be.

I have no idea what a used computer is worth. I would think a couple hundred bucks is a reasonable price for a decent functioning computer. Not sure how much lower you could go but it's worth a shot.

think about it this way; if you send it back, you will have lost the $200 you have invested in the computer.

 

[ramoanstick]

"but you really had to know that you were not going to get a new computer for a couple hundred bucks, at least one that isn't stolen property."

Negative sir. The computer is actually a net-book, it retails for $299 brand new at a retailer like BestBuy so getting a brand new one for $212 on Ebay is not so absurd as I would think it stolen.

think about it this way; if you send it back, you will have lost the $200 you have invested in the computer.

EXACTLY! That is why I am trying to avoid sending it back but still let them know what they did was maliciously wrong. I KNOW for a fact they listed it as new when it was really used to get higher bids. So he was trying to screw the high bidder.

Like I said before I am not trying to defraud them in any way shape or form or do anything illegal (which is why I am asking for you advice here). I just want them to have some sort of punitive damage so they know they can't lie like they did and get away with it.

Again thanks for your help!