Question about New Paypal policy

[Astrolink]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? MN

Paypal has some new policies beginning November 15th, but the one that concerns me is this: "We're increasing the time for buyers to file merchandise disputes (Item Not Received and Significantly Not as Described) from 45 days to 180 days" AND "If you use PayPal after the date these changes become effective, we will take that usage as your consent to the changed terms."

I buy a new Macbook every year for around $1000, then sell it when the warranty expires after a year for around $700, then buy a new one. This way I always have a new computer that is under warranty.

If I understand Paypal's new policy, I must more or less give a free 6 month warranty if I sell my computer at Ebay and they use Paypal (which is how most transaction transpire) because if something happens to during that 6 months, it will fit as "not as described."

A further question is the legality of the new policy and what is the limit they can change the 180 days in the future? 1 year? 10 years? Lifetime? At what point is it considered unreasonable? Or, does their policy that once you use Paypal lock you in no matter how unreasonable the provisions might be?

 

[single317dad]

There's a lot of chatter about this policy around various web forums right now. Many are up in arms (as many usually are after any announcement of policy change from eBay or Paypal). Personally, I believe that the combination of this revised policy from Paypal, Paypal's announcement that they'll be accepting Bitcoin, and the announcement that eBay and Paypal will be splitting next year both position the companies perfectly for their new roles as US storefront for Alibaba (eBay) and payment processor for all online retail operations (Paypal). Separating from eBay will allow Paypal to work with Amazon and other retailers now. This revised policy puts them in line with Amazon and most of the big box stores.

In practice, Paypal's policies are not nearly as draconian as their language, despite the many complaint sites on the web. I would expect this change to apply mostly to items ordered and paid for in advance, for example wedding invitations. Etsy is ridiculous with scams right now, with sellers promising custom handmade items or art months out and payment required up front, but never delivering. If a buyer purchases your laptop and it works fine for 178 days, I wouldn't expect a dispute resolution opened by the buyer on the 179th day to end successfully for them, though it may have the effect of inconveniencing you if there is a temporary hold on those funds.

To address the exact letter of the policy change, it appears that, yes, Paypal could refund your buyer at your expense even 6 months after the initial purchase. The language of these things tends to change over time, though, and with the public outcry I'm seeing this time, I wouldn't be surprised to see some clarification added very soon.

Regarding future changes in terms of service, Paypal can change those terms at any time as it sees fit. You are free to use a different payment processor (no, I'm not joking; you actually can, though eBay doesn't make that obvious). If enough sellers cease acceptance of Paypal, then they'll either change their terms to suit sellers, or they'll die out. Neither scenario seems to be likely anytime soon.

 

[LdiJ]

There's a lot of chatter about this policy around various web forums right now. Many are up in arms (as many usually are after any announcement of policy change from eBay or Paypal). Personally, I believe that the combination of this revised policy from Paypal, Paypal's announcement that they'll be accepting Bitcoin, and the announcement that eBay and Paypal will be splitting next year both position the companies perfectly for their new roles as US storefront for Alibaba (eBay) and payment processor for all online retail operations (Paypal). Separating from eBay will allow Paypal to work with Amazon and other retailers now. This revised policy puts them in line with Amazon and most of the big box stores.

In practice, Paypal's policies are not nearly as draconian as their language, despite the many complaint sites on the web. I would expect this change to apply mostly to items ordered and paid for in advance, for example wedding invitations. Etsy is ridiculous with scams right now, with sellers promising custom handmade items or art months out and payment required up front, but never delivering. If a buyer purchases your laptop and it works fine for 178 days, I wouldn't expect a dispute resolution opened by the buyer on the 179th day to end successfully for them, though it may have the effect of inconveniencing you if there is a temporary hold on those funds.

To address the exact letter of the policy change, it appears that, yes, Paypal could refund your buyer at your expense even 6 months after the initial purchase. The language of these things tends to change over time, though, and with the public outcry I'm seeing this time, I wouldn't be surprised to see some clarification added very soon.

Regarding future changes in terms of service, Paypal can change those terms at any time as it sees fit. You are free to use a different payment processor (no, I'm not joking; you actually can, though eBay doesn't make that obvious). If enough sellers cease acceptance of Paypal, then they'll either change their terms to suit sellers, or they'll die out. Neither scenario seems to be likely anytime soon.

You make some very good points, and six months for "item not received" seems logical to me. However, six months for "item significantly not as described" doesn't. Its simply not logical.

 

[single317dad]

You make some very good points, and six months for "item not received" seems logical to me. However, six months for "item significantly not as described" doesn't. Its simply not logical.

Imagine that same set of wedding invitations, paid for in February for a May delivery. If they're finally received June 1 but Mr. and Mrs. Smith are now Mr. and Mrs. Jones, that's an "item significantly not as described" (we call them SNADs). The buyer wouldn't be able to wait for the seller to fix the problem, and would have to have it done locally at significant expense with such short notice. A refund would certainly be in order.

Again, I don't foresee buyers winning cases on day 179 for a laptop that worked fine for 178 days. It could certainly happen, but I don't think it will be the norm. Paypal disputes are all reviewed by mediators in cases where both parties take the initiative to come to the table. I think this change was primarily geared toward Etsy crafters and Chinese wholesalers with long delivery times, but the wording doesn't convey that intent very well.

 

[justalayman]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? MN

Paypal has some new policies beginning November 15th, but the one that concerns me is this: "We're increasing the time for buyers to file merchandise disputes (Item Not Received and Significantly Not as Described) from 45 days to 180 days" AND "If you use PayPal after the date these changes become effective, we will take that usage as your consent to the changed terms."

I buy a new Macbook every year for around $1000, then sell it when the warranty expires after a year for around $700, then buy a new one. This way I always have a new computer that is under warranty.

If I understand Paypal's new policy, I must more or less give a free 6 month warranty if I sell my computer at Ebay and they use Paypal (which is how most transaction transpire) because if something happens to during that 6 months, it will fit as "not as described."

A further question is the legality of the new policy and what is the limit they can change the 180 days in the future? 1 year? 10 years? Lifetime? At what point is it considered unreasonable? Or, does their policy that once you use Paypal lock you in no matter how unreasonable the provisions might be?

You can buy a Mac for $1000? Wow. Seems like a low price from my casual shopping.


Anyway, they are not enforcing a de facto warranty of any sort. There is no warranty unless you provide a warranty. They are allowing additional time for disputes. Warranties do not come into play in disputes of course unless you provide a warranty and fail to live up to the terms of said warranty.

I don't undrstand your argument that "not as described" allows a claim months down the road. Regardless of how long they allow for s dispute, the terms of the offer at the time of delivery are what matters. If it works as stated on day one, that means it works. Anything after that is irrelevant, unless of course you expressed or implied an additional warranty

I suspect the extended period of time is to allow a buyer to discover matters of fraud. That is very different than a warranty issue as fraud is unlawful, possibly illegal, and is always a basis to rescind a sale. PayPal is not doing anything in the end other than attempting to subvert intentional fraud by making it harder for a person to hide defects that are the basis of the fraud.



And they get to dictate the time the policy covers because it is their company. If you do not wish to be subject to the terms of use of their services, find other means to complete your transactions. Just as with any other business, if you don't like what they offer, take your business elsewhere.

 

[justalayman]

Again, I don't foresee buyers winning cases on day 179 for a laptop that worked fine for 178 days. It could certainly happen, but I don't think it will be the norm. Paypal disputes are all reviewed by mediators in cases where both parties take the initiative to come to the table. I think this change was primarily geared toward Etsy crafters and Chinese wholesalers with long delivery times, but the wording doesn't convey that intent very well.

They would have no valid claim of "not as described" 179 days after delivery. At the time of delivery is what is important and if it worked (barring some undeylying fraud) it was delivered as promised even if it quits working on day 179. I don't see this as imposing a de facto warranty as it appears others are. It is simply additional time to register the complaint but to have a valid complaint it must address the item at the time of delivery. While it helps those too lazy to register a complaint within the current limit (but not really because those people will still go "oh, it's been almost 180 days and now I have to rush to file my dispute"! If they changed it to a year they would do the same thing at day 364.) but allows for the discovery of fraud for a greater period of time.

I also believe that complaints wil be harder to prove by the buyer as the seller can argue the buyer caused then issue and only then filed a complaint. That is why "at the time of delivery"'will be the determining factor.

 

[FlyingRon]

If you don't like it, leave. I suspect shortly Paypal will cease to be obligatory for ebay. They'll go back to allowing any processor. However, you should know that you're just as likely to get wholloped with an untimely chargeback from other processors as well.

 

[Astrolink]

This has been my experience with Ebay/Paypal and why the new 180 day policy concerns me. I've sold a large quantity of custom colored older laptops over the last 15 years. The people that buy them are typically young, with probably 85% female. I describe them in detail about their age, their limitations and implore people to research what they are buying to make sure it meets their needs. I've gone as far as stating a long, detailed return policy that only includes defective units, but when I've refused to refund a claim, I've lost every one of them, even though every return has been a perfectly working laptop. Ebay is not supposed to honor cases with "buyer's remorse," but in reality, they side with the buyer. When Ebay went from a 14 day return period with returns only for genuinely defective or not as described items to 45 days (and an unwritten policy of "the seller wins" a few years ago, my return rate went from 1 in a hundred to about 1 in 4. Of the couple hundred returns I've had, not one has been defective or not as described. I've resold every one of them when returned, only reloading the software to overwrite whatever they've put on them. They are simply old and slow (I actually describe them that way and state that I won't accept a return for this reason) but many people are not satisfied. I highly suspect Ebay will allow 180 day returns on the laptops I sell....I've already had several where a case was opened on day 45. The problem is my buying group is one that often changes their mind and clearly doesn't research what they are buying.

Finally, every one of these returns counts as "not as described" by Ebay when comes to rating me as a seller, even though there's not been one returned defective or not as described. I've talked to a couple of their agents on the phone....and they had no solution. I guess the writing is on the wall....time to sell at a new venue and with different methods of payment.

 

[justalayman]

a claim, I've lost every one of them, even though every return has been a perfectly working laptop. Ebay is not supposed to honor cases with "buyer's remorse," but in reality, they side with the buyer.

so basically nothing is changing other than the time allowed to act. Since paypal appears to leave such a bad taste in your mouth now, I guess my question would be not really why the extension bothers you but rather; why use them at all if you do not care for how they enforce their policies?

 

[Astrolink]

"You can buy a Mac for $1000? Wow. Seems like a low price from my casual shopping."

I buy refurbished Macs directly from Apple. A new 13" Macbook Air is $799 to $1499 with a full 1 year warranty. Apple installs a new battery and new outside case if there are any marks....they are new looking in all respects.

 

[justalayman]

"You can buy a Mac for $1000? Wow. Seems like a low price from my casual shopping."

I buy refurbished Macs directly from Apple. A new 13" Macbook Air is $799 to $1499 with a full 1 year warranty. Apple installs a new battery and new outside case if there are any marks....they are new looking in all respects.

Ah, I see. Never owned a Mac. Considered it but since these are nothing more than toys for me (no real need for one), the value hasn't been there to cause me to purchase a Mac (and I hate laptops anyway so wouldn't really consider one of them anyway)

 

[single317dad]

They would have no valid claim of "not as described" 179 days after delivery. At the time of delivery is what is important... That is why "at the time of delivery"'will be the determining factor.

I agree with you as pertains to arguments in a court of law; however, Paypal arbitration is not a court of law, and some of their decisions leave me befuddled. That said, they're usually not complete idiots, and most of their decisions are reasonably fair and correct when both parties participate in the resolution process and present all requested evidence.

 

[justalayman]

I agree with you as pertains to arguments in a court of law; however, Paypal arbitration is not a court of law, and some of their decisions leave me befuddled. That said, they're usually not complete idiots, and most of their decisions are reasonably fair and correct when both parties participate in the resolution process and present all requested evidence.

I suspected as much but it appears op has a disproportionate number of customers that don't play well with others. Op can either find a replacement for PayPal or figure the risk is worth the result. When you don't get to make the rules, you either find a new game or play with the rules this game master puts forth.

Or learn how to more effectively play with the current rules to reduce the issues you are having.


Personally I would like to see a true escrow service made available. It's done with big dollar issues all the time quite successfully. PayPal likes to play like they are an escrow service but there are too many rules they have put into play that do not result in or even allow a judicially proper result to a problem to be a true escrow service. It could be much simpler than the current system and on that simplicity there could be clarity in the terms and options available to the users of the service.

 

[single317dad]

Personally I would like to see a true escrow service made available. It's done with big dollar issues all the time quite successfully. PayPal likes to play like they are an escrow service but there are too many rules they have put into play that do not result in or even allow a judicially proper result to a problem to be a true escrow service. It could be much simpler than the current system and on that simplicity there could be clarity in the terms and options available to the users of the service.

Before there were any payment processors available to individuals without merchant accounts (such as Paypal), eBay did indeed operate a true escrow service. The cost was prohibitive for smaller sales, but for anything >$500 the fee of $5 and up was quite reasonable. It was, as you said, quite simple: The buyer funded the escrow, the seller shipped the item, the buyer recorded their satisfaction, and the seller was paid. Nowadays the only time I see escrow options on eBay are on the auto listings.

 

[FamilyGirl]

This has been my experience with Ebay/Paypal and why the new 180 day policy concerns me. I've sold a large quantity of custom colored older laptops over the last 15 years. The people that buy them are typically young, with probably 85% female. I describe them in detail about their age, their limitations and implore people to research what they are buying to make sure it meets their needs. I've gone as far as stating a long, detailed return policy that only includes defective units, but when I've refused to refund a claim, I've lost every one of them, even though every return has been a perfectly working laptop. Ebay is not supposed to honor cases with "buyer's remorse," but in reality, they side with the buyer. When Ebay went from a 14 day return period with returns only for genuinely defective or not as described items to 45 days (and an unwritten policy of "the seller wins" a few years ago, my return rate went from 1 in a hundred to about 1 in 4. Of the couple hundred returns I've had, not one has been defective or not as described. I've resold every one of them when returned, only reloading the software to overwrite whatever they've put on them. They are simply old and slow (I actually describe them that way and state that I won't accept a return for this reason) but many people are not satisfied. I highly suspect Ebay will allow 180 day returns on the laptops I sell....I've already had several where a case was opened on day 45. The problem is my buying group is one that often changes their mind and clearly doesn't research what they are buying.

Finally, every one of these returns counts as "not as described" by Ebay when comes to rating me as a seller, even though there's not been one returned defective or not as described. I've talked to a couple of their agents on the phone....and they had no solution. I guess the writing is on the wall....time to sell at a new venue and with different methods of payment.

Why would they bother researching what they are buying when they have a six month return policy? SMH This is one of Paypal's most recent brilliant ideas...

eBay & Paypal create these type of monsters. You're wasting your time writing any type of return policy anyway. If you use Paypal, you accept returns whether you like it or not for what was 45 days, and is now 180. If you want to sell on eBay and use Paypal as your processor, keep in mind that the buyer wins the Paypal dispute 99.9% of the time. I've sold on eBay for 12 years. My best advice? Don't accept Paypal unless you accept that the buyer is pretty much guaranteed to win all the time, and don't sell anything you can't afford to lose. Electronics, especially Mac Books are a very high risk category. You're actually lucky that they are indeed returning the item they borrowed (interest free) for 45 days, and not sending back a box of rocks with a tracking number. It happened to a gentlemen I know who was selling items from his store on eBay. He sold a very expensive cell phone and the buyer opened a SNAD claim. He agreed to refund the buyer on return of the item, and the buyer sent back a box of rocks instead, with tracking. A Paypal representative told him that their default policy is to side with the buyer at all times. There was no way Paypal could verify that the person sent the cell phone back, or rocks. They basically told him to pound sand. True story.

I sell on eBay, and use my own payment processor. Paypal will never see another dime of my money. If you sell regularly on eBay, you may want to consider using your own merchant processor. Especially for these types of items.

And yes, they can pretty much dictate the terms of their service to be as ridiculous as they want. Whose going to challenge them? Their defense is, if you don't like the terms; don't use our service.