return of deposit made online

[cello-player]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Mississippi. I ordered a hand-made harp from a luthier last Friday and made a $150 deposit online via PayPal. On his website, the luthier states that deposits are not refundable after three days. The next day (Saturday), I decided against the instrument and sent an email cancelling the order. When I checked my PayPal account, the luthier had already completed the transaction, so PayPal could not cancel the payment. I've emailed the luthier numerous times requesting my refund, but get no answers. The only response I've had from him was an automated message on Friday stating he had received my order and would send me an invoice the next day. I haven't received the invoice. Internet searches have indicated that others are having the similar problems with this luthier. Several have waited a year and still haven't received their instruments. The luthier's instruments get good reviews, and he's been in business for some time. Are there any legal steps I can take? This almost seems fraudulant. The luthier is located in California.

 

[Zigner]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Mississippi. I ordered a hand-made harp from a luthier last Friday and made a $150 deposit online via PayPal. On his website, the luthier states that deposits are not refundable after three days. The next day (Saturday), I decided against the instrument and sent an email cancelling the order. When I checked my PayPal account, the luthier had already completed the transaction, so PayPal could not cancel the payment. I've emailed the luthier numerous times requesting my refund, but get no answers. The only response I've had from him was an automated message on Friday stating he had received my order and would send me an invoice the next day. I haven't received the invoice. Internet searches have indicated that others are having the similar problems with this luthier. Several have waited a year and still haven't received their instruments. The luthier's instruments get good reviews, and he's been in business for some time. Are there any legal steps I can take? This almost seems fraudulant. The luthier is located in California.

You can head on out to California and sue the bad guy in small claims court. Your travel expenses won't be recoverable.

 

[swalsh411]

File a paypal complaint.

 

[cello-player]

You can head on out to California and sue the bad guy in small claims court. Your travel expenses won't be recoverable.

I take it you meant your comment to be facetious.

 

[Proserpina]

I take it you meant your comment to be facetious.

No, seriously - if you have to sue in small claims, you will have to do it where the other guy is located. California.

 

[cello-player]

File a paypal complaint.

I plan to do that, but PayPal makes it clear that once the money has been claimed, they can/will do nothing. I will be communicating to my credit card company as well. Guess there are no applicable laws to cover buying and selling online.

 

[sandyclaus]

...Internet searches have indicated that others are having the similar problems with this luthier. Several have waited a year and still haven't received their instruments. The luthier's instruments get good reviews, and he's been in business for some time. Are there any legal steps I can take? This almost seems fraudulant...

In all honest, you could (and should) have done your research BEFORE you started conducting business with this guy. It's not like the info was not available to you - since your internet research easily revealed others having similar issues with the guy under similar circumstances. As for those reviews, I'll remind you that SOME people are so slimy as to create their own reviews, so unless you actually saw the products and spoke with the specific customers to confirm, even those are questionable.

This is one of the MAJOR pitfalls of doing business on the internet with someone you don't know and have never seen.

As for PayPal, you CAN file a dispute (services not rendered for payment received), but it might be more effective to sue - if you have the time and money to do so, because those are not recoverable expenses in a suit to claim your damages.

 

[Mass_Shyster]

No, seriously - if you have to sue in small claims, you will have to do it where the other guy is located. California.

Here we go again.

If the defendant has the required minimum contacts in the forum state (Here, Mississippi), that court can claim jurisdiction over the defendant.

This is based in International Shoe, World Wide Volkswagon, and Zippo. The Zippo holding was that an entity with a commercial website (able to accept orders and not simply a static page) means the defendant has purposefully chosen to be bound by the forum state, and if the defendant did not wish to be bound by the courts of that state, the defendant could have chosen not to sell to customers in that state.

Mississippi Long-Arm Statute
Miss. Code Ann. § 13-3-57
§ 13-3-57. Service on nonresident business not qualified to do business in state; survival of cause of action in case of death or inability to act; service on nonresident executor, administrator, etc Any nonresident person, firm, general or limited partnership, or any foreign or other corporation not qualified under the Constitution and laws of this state as to doing business herein, who shall make a contract with a resident of this state to be performed in whole or in part by any party in this state, or who shall commit a tort in whole or in part in this state against a resident or nonresident of this state, or who shall do any business or perform any character of work or service in this state, shall by such act or acts be deemed to be doing business in Mississippi and shall thereby be subjected to the jurisdiction of the courts of this state.

 

[swalsh411]

I plan to do that, but PayPal makes it clear that once the money has been claimed, they can/will do nothing. I will be communicating to my credit card company as well. Guess there are no applicable laws to cover buying and selling online.

The thousands of stories of paypal taking money back from sellers when buyers claim fraud tell me otherwise.

However, in your case since this is a partial deposit and not a straightforward sale you may be right.

 

[BigMouthWino]

I plan to do that, but PayPal makes it clear that once the money has been claimed, they can/will do nothing. I will be communicating to my credit card company as well. Guess there are no applicable laws to cover buying and selling online.

Is that what they told you AFTER you completed the dispute filing process on their website? Or are you just assuming this?

If you haven't filed a dispute through PayPal already file it. If that is unsuccessful and you used your credit card to pay via PayPal file a dispute with your credit card company.

 

[You Are Guilty]

Here we go again.

If the defendant has the required minimum contacts in the forum state (Here, Mississippi), that court can claim jurisdiction over the defendant.

This is based in International Shoe, World Wide Volkswagon, and Zippo. The Zippo holding was that an entity with a commercial website (able to accept orders and not simply a static page) means the defendant has purposefully chosen to be bound by the forum state, and if the defendant did not wish to be bound by the courts of that state, the defendant could have chosen not to sell to customers in that state.

Even using the 5th Cir. decision that applied Zippo (http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F3/190/190.F3d.333.98-20770.html), it appears the transaction here was made via Paypal, not the luthier's website (and +1 bonus point if you knew what a 'luthier' was before the OP's post). [NB: I admittedly do not buy harps or use Paypal, so if Paypal can be used from within one's own personal website, this may not be a particularly useful argument].

There is also no indication of how many Mississippi harps this guy made and I would suspect that the Mississippi harp market is not particularly thriving these days.

Now more importantly, will a Mississippi small claims court care one lick about any of this? Probably not. But without seeing the offending website, it is certainly possible the OP will not be able to pull this off locally.

 

[Mass_Shyster]

Even using the 5th Cir. decision that applied Zippo (http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F3/190/190.F3d.333.98-20770.html), it appears the transaction here was made via Paypal, not the luthier's website (and +1 bonus point if you knew what a 'luthier' was before the OP's post). [NB: I admittedly do not buy harps or use Paypal, so if Paypal can be used from within one's own personal website, this may not be a particularly useful argument].

There is also no indication of how many Mississippi harps this guy made and I would suspect that the Mississippi harp market is not particularly thriving these days.

Now more importantly, will a Mississippi small claims court care one lick about any of this? Probably not. But without seeing the offending website, it is certainly possible the OP will not be able to pull this off locally.

Paypal is a method of payment, like a credit card. You purchase the item from the website and instruct paypal to charge your credit card or withdraw the funds from your account and pay the merchant (referenced by his/her/its email address). My guess is the luthier has his own website with a shopping cart application installed.

I get no bonus points regarding the luthier, and I'll admit I also didn't look it up.

I'm just getting sick of reading posts that incorrectly claim the plaintiff can only sue in a court in the defendant's state.

 

[Zigner]

I'm just getting sick of reading posts that incorrectly claim the plaintiff can only sue in a court in the defendant's state.

In THIS case, it's the correct answer

 

[Mass_Shyster]

In THIS case, it's the correct answer

How did you come to that (incorrect) conclusion?

 

[Zigner]

How did you come to that (incorrect) conclusion?

Performance of the contract with no in the state. Payment was not made in the state, nor is the work being performed in the state.