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Civil Forfeiture

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FootBallFan68

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Pennsylvania

Since my last post, I was arrested, and charged with Obstruction. Officers executed a search of my house and re-seized my laptop, servers ect. They were not able to break the encryption of my hard drives (again) and the prosecutor made a motion to compel me to give up my passwords. The judge denied it based on a Federal case where the Court ruled that passwords are protected under the 5th amendment.

My lawyer suggested I go right at them and get a fast trial and get the police to admit in OPEN COURT they placed a keylogger inside my server without a warrant. I then went to a two day trial, and was found not guilty on three counts (Obstruction, Tampering/Destruction of Evidence, and Unlawful Use of a Computer).

However, during the search of my house, the Police discovered a Visa prepaid debit card that had about $2000 on it. I use it to travel so I don't have to carry cash or true credit/debit cards. The warrant was ONLY for my computers, and the card was in an office organizer drawer the Police rifled through. The Police said that they could seize it and keep it with civil forfeiture, and did take it.

After they left, I called my bank and reported the card "stolen". The $2000 was transferred back into my bank account immediately, and I used the money to pay utility bills ect.

I guess the Police now have just got around to processing the card, and have discovered that it is empty, and I took the money back that same day. I received a summons to appear in court for a civil forfeiture hearing.

My question is, when they seize the card, do they also seize the funds associated with it, or just the card itself? And since I was found not guilty, the Police have no claim to the money, correct?

And then Police will NOT return my computers, even after the judge ordered them returned at the end of my trial. How do I compel the Police to give them back? I talked to a Lieutenant at the department and he told me they didn't have to give them back, and the judge didn't have the power to return them to me.
 


justalayman

Senior Member
You are very bad at doing a very bad thing and eventually, you are going to lose everything. If the computers are still being held for some investigation, they can hold them until that investigation and subsequent case has reached a final disposition. It sounds like there may be more in the works for you.

I noticed you make a huge issue about what you were found not guilty concerning. The bigger question is: were you found guilty of anything?

and while you might be correct, is there any reason to believe the FBI stated they couldn't decrypt the hard drive you spoke of but in reality did break it, or at least part of it and simply returned it, possibly even with a virus added, to the owner and continue to download data on a regular basis to this day?

The FBI, as well as most similar type government agencies, are very good at using misinformation to their benefit.

so, the other question I see is: what is their claim for civil forfeiture? There must be a basis for the taking. So far, I'm not seeing it.
 

FootBallFan68

Junior Member
If the computers are still being held for some investigation, they can hold them until that investigation and subsequent case has reached a final disposition. It sounds like there may be more in the works for you.
During the evidentiary hearing (when the State tried to compel me to give up passwords) the prosecutor stated to the judge that the charges were total and complete. The judge replied "This is what you are going to prosecute with?" as if slightly in disbelief. The prosecutor said something to the effect of "Yes, we are confident we have a strong case against the Defendant".

They threw everything (what little they had at me), even trying to argue that using encryption software is equivalent to shredding physical documents. People are charged all the time with shredding documents, which CAN be put back together after weeks of pasting. But the act of shredding constituted destruction of evidence. They tried to argue the same applies to encrypting documents. I highly doubt more is in the works for me. They tried pretty hard and lost.


The bigger question is: were you found guilty of anything?
I was found "not guilty" on ALL charges.

1) Obstruction for removing the hardware keylogger and keeping documents encrypted that Police wanted.

2) Tampering/destruction of evidence for the act of encrypting documents

3) Unlawful use of a computer for creating "fake" documents I handed over to private investigators.

and while you might be correct, is there any reason to believe the FBI stated they couldn't decrypt the hard drive you spoke of but in reality did break it, or at least part of it and simply returned it, possibly even with a virus added, to the owner and continue to download data on a regular basis to this day?
The FBI was not involved whatsoever. I used TrueCrypt to encrypt ALL my hard drives, even the OPERATING SYSTEM. A small "bootloader" decrypts the operating system with the correct password, and the computer operates from the decrypted files in memory.

The FBI (and every other person) has failed on every attempt to break TrueCrypt anyway. The program is "open source" meaning that anyone can inspect the code and know for sure it is free of "back doors". ANY attempt to alter the data of the encrypted drive and place a virus, and TrueCrypt would flag the drive as "altered" and refuse to boot. TrueCrypt is in fact so successful, there have been talks of requiring for it to be distributed in the US, a back door should exist in its code for Law Enforcement.

so, the other question I see is: what is their claim for civil forfeiture? There must be a basis for the taking. So far, I'm not seeing it.
From what I have gathered it that when seizing my computers for evidence the second time, the Police found the prepaid debit card. They reasoned that the funds on the card MAY be derived from the "illegal" acts I was charged with. It is then up to me to demonstrate that the funds are not in fact from those acts, otherwise the Police are free to keep them.

The REAL questions are:

1) When Police seize a prepaid debit card, do they seize the CARD itself, or the FUNDS associated with it. I reported the card "stolen" and my bank returned the funds to my account within hours of the seizure of the card.

2) Since I was found "not guilty" on ALL charges, shouldn't they drop the civil forfeiture claim since NO illegal acts occurred in the first place as definitely and unanimously determined by a Jury of my peers?
 
Last edited:

CdwJava

Senior Member
1) When Police seize a prepaid debit card, do they seize the CARD itself, or the FUNDS associated with it. I reported the card "stolen" and my bank returned the funds to my account within hours of the seizure of the card.
I do not know the answer to your question, but it is clear that you DID lie to the bank ... this is called "fraud." You better hope they do no get wind of your deception.

2) Since I was found "not guilty" on ALL charges, shouldn't they drop the civil forfeiture claim since NO illegal acts occurred in the first place as definitely and unanimously determined by a Jury of my peers?
Is it a state or federal claim?

Some states - and the feds - have very liberal asset forfeiture policies that do not require a conviction to proceed. It might be harder for them to prove, but in some states the burden of proving that the proceeds were obtained legally are thrown on the defendant and not on the state. Yeah, it sucks.

You know how you can avoid all these little complications? Don't break the law. It really is simple, you know.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
FootBallFan68;2781903]


The FBI (and every other person) has failed on every attempt to break TrueCrypt anyway. The program is "open source" meaning that anyone can inspect the code and know for sure it is free of "back doors". ANY attempt to alter the data of the encrypted drive and place a virus, and TrueCrypt would flag the drive as "altered" and refuse to boot. TrueCrypt is in fact so successful, there have been talks of requiring for it to be distributed in the US, a back door should exist in its code for Law Enforcement.
Believe what you want. There is very little in the cyber world impervious to attack. When somebody claims invincibility, I start to wonder about ulterior motives.





From what I have gathered it that when seizing my computers for evidence the second time, the Police found the prepaid debit card. They reasoned that the funds on the card MAY be derived from the "illegal" acts I was charged with. It is then up to me to demonstrate that the funds are not in fact from those acts, otherwise the Police are free to keep them.
so, that leaves you with fighting for the money. In my opinion, this is very very wrong as it allows the police' claims to be proof enough and leaves the defendant with proving innocence. It is a criminal prosecution dressed up in a civil suit so it doesn't allow the protections afforded by the Constitution for criminal actions.

The REAL questions are:

1) When Police seize a prepaid debit card, do they seize the CARD itself, or the FUNDS associated with it. I reported the card "stolen" and my bank returned the funds to my account within hours of the seizure of the card.
well, the fact you reported it "stolen" is a problem. You knew it wasn't stolen but seized. That means you acted fraudulently. So, committing a crime to retain the money; sounds like a crime in itself.

and them seizing the card would be equivalent of them seizing a bank account. Should you find a way to transfer funds out of an account after seizure doesn't mean you win.

2) Since I was found "not guilty" on ALL charges, shouldn't they drop the civil forfeiture claim since NO illegal acts occurred in the first place as definitely and unanimously determined by a Jury of my peers?
check out this:

US v. $124,700
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_v._$124,700
 

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