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Craigslist Fraud: what legal action? How do i find contact info?

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What is the name of your state? TN
The state the criminal is in is AZ

So, i know it was dumb but i deal online a lot and it seemed ok.
I responded to this craigslist add:
This tablet pc has a 60gig hard drive, built in bluetooth and wireless, 1.8ghz pent. M technology and 1 gig of ram. There is one problem with it it is missing the "G" and "f6" keys. Also it will need a ac adapter. Right now it is charged but i do not have an adapter for it.MUST SELL TONIGHT CAN MEET YOU WHEREEVER REPLY TO THIS AD WITH YOUR CONTACT #. MAY ACCEPT CASH PLUS TRADE. LET ME KNOW ASAP. THANK YOU
Of course, the phone number he gave me as alternate was cut off, the address he gave me was of someone else. I paid the scammer, (let's call him bob) through paypal to his friend, (let's say Tom). After 3 days of no communication i filed a claim with paypal hoping to catch the money before it left the account. It did freeze tom's paypal account, but not before tom gave bob the money.

Now, tom's freaking out because i have his full name, address, and paypal has all his bank info tied into his ebay account as well. I've got some info for bob, but i would like more. Looking at the craiglist listing, it seems like bob does indeed have the computer, but doesn't feel like shipping it. The pressure is currently on Tom.


What legal action can i pursue?
Can i sue or go to small claims court?
Can paypal's records be subpeoned?
Would this have to take place in AZ or TN and if won could i be reimbursed for travel expenses?
Does fraud fall under federal jurisdiction and what's the penalty?
Do i file this with my local police or with Phoenix police?
Should i waste any more time with background / phone number check sites like intellius?
Should i hire a private investigator to find out more? (in case the police drag their ass)

thank you for your time and i will check this regularly as things unfold.
I forgot to mention that it's more a matter of principle i'm concerned with and i'm willing to spend as much money as it takes.
 
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Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
If this is a matter of principle, then you should pack up and go home. You got scammed.
 
If this is a matter of principle, then you should pack up and go home. You got scammed.
What!? I don't understand. Why?

I'm trying to think of a good analogy, i guess the first thing that comes to mind is car theft. Let's say your car gets stolen, you know the guy's name and where he lives, but the insurance company will replace your car. Should one just take the insurance car and leave the thief alone? Why would you do that when you can call the police, and bring him to justice?
(despite getting a newer car)

edit: Now that i think about it more, maybe it's not more a matter of principle. I really want my money/laptop, and i'd like to see him convicted in the process. I would settle for either one but I won't be satisfied with doing nothing.
 
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Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
What!? I don't understand. Why?

I'm trying to think of a good analogy, i guess the first thing that comes to mind is car theft. Let's say your car gets stolen, you know the guy's name and where he lives, but the insurance company will replace your car. Should one just take the insurance car and leave the thief alone? Why would you do that when you can call the police, and bring him to justice?
(despite getting a newer car)
Fine, report it to the police and let them investigate it. Be sure to keep on top of them to make sure they give this all the time and energy it is due...wouldn't want the bad guy getting away.

To answer some of your questions though: You would have to sue in AZ - your travel expenses would NOT be reimbursed. Should you hire PI's and spend money on Intellius? That's your call. And, that's where my advice to learn your lesson and move on came in to play. You can spend all the money on PI's or whatever else you want in order to find out who has your money...but it won't be reimbursed. Is it worth it? To you - maybe...
 
Be sure to keep on top of them to make sure they give this all the time and energy it is due...wouldn't want the bad guy getting away.
I don't understand why you are being so flippant about this. I assume you are inferring that the police won't care? I was thinking it would be as simple as saying, "hey, this guy at this address stole a bunch of money from me and there's a paper trail through paypal. Go get him."

Also, i guess i should clear up those last two questions. I was basically wondering if the police would actually do anything. I also don't see why my money won't get reimbursed. I was scammed on amazon before, and though it took 4 months, i got my money back. Even if i don't get it back, isn't it possible i could have him convicted?
 
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stephenk

Senior Member
"tom's freaking out"

How do you know? Have you been in communication with him? If yes, is he willing to pay your money back or give up his friend's info?
 
Yes i have. His paypal account is locked and he can't open another one cause it's tied to his bank account. He said bob "made a mistake" and that he would either get me the money, a laptop, or even make payments. I spoke with him on the phone once and was actually very amicable, and have been up until tonight.

He seems to have a problem communicating, returning phone calls, or answering his phone. It's just hit or miss. Then tonight he started firing off emails begging me to work with him. I'm thinking that he may have limited access to the internet. I tried calling again to no avail, so i sent a letter outlining the information that i wanted in order to peacefully resolve this. I also made it clear that i'd reached the end of my patience. So far that's where we stand.
[edited for gross spelling]:D
 
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L

LegalWithAnI

Guest
There's no way you can get your money back.

I once scammed someone out of $500 the same way. I used my real info and everything. The most the cops will do about it is file a report and thats it.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
The police will do very little with this. They will take a report and file it away. They do not have the resources to travel across the country to investigate this kind of theft, and they aren't going to have a lot of sympathy for those who get scammed this way.

This is the biggest reason why I never buy from eBay or its many clones. We get far too many tales reported to us that are similar to yours. The scammers intentionally deal in amounts that are too low to attract the feds, and too low to make it cost effective for the victim to fly across country to sue them.

These types of sites have been a boon to con men and thieves everywhere!

- Carl
 
They do not have the resources to travel across the country to investigate this kind of theft...
So can i not call the police in phoenix and give them the name and address of this guy? Or do i have to go through my local police? If i go through my local police can i just have them call phoenix? I think, by some of the stuff bob was saying, tom may already be in trouble with the police. I still don't understand why they can't just drive out to his house. There's written communication promising goods, and it's not like this is just a money order or something.

So if the police won't do anything about my money does that mean they will care equally as little if he gets hurt because of this?
 
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CdwJava

Senior Member
willpower102 said:
So can i not call the police in phoenix and give them the name and address of this guy?
You can certainly call them. They probably will do nothing about it, though. The crime ostensibly occurred in TN.

Or do i have to go through my local police? If i go through my local police can i just have them call phoenix?
You can report it to the local police ... IF they see this is as criminal and not civil. A sloppy selling procedure or arrangements does not - by itself - demonstrate intent to defraud. It is possible the police will look at this as a civil matter and not a criminal one.

I think, by some of the stuff bob was saying, tom may already be in trouble with the police. I still don't understand why they can't just drive out to his house. There's written communication promising goods, and it's not like this is just a money order or something.
Because the Phoenix police are probably a tad busy to play messenger for your (likely) civil issue. Promising goods and not delivering is not a crime unless intent can be established. If intent to defraud can be established, then the argument becomes one of jurisdiction: Where did the fraud take place? In TN where the victim lives? (the usual method) ... or in AZ where the suspect lives? (not likely the interpretation the Phoenix PD will have).

Call the local police and see what they have to say.

So if the police won't do anything about my money does that mean they will care equally as little if he gets hurt because of this?
Your local cops aren't going to care what happens to some guy halfway across the country. The Phoenix police, however, may care a whole lot about an assault and battery that occurs within their jurisdiction.
- Carl
 
thanks for those comprehensive replies! You are the first person to actually give me some good information.

Two more questions: What kind of evidence would i need to support it as an intent to defraud. Would the fact that he gave false addresses, phone numbers and emails from a husmail account be enough? (also wonder if he's not posing as the person from the false info which would be identity theft as well)

If it ends up just a civil case, what could i then do? Would i have to go to court in phoenix and how would i initiate that? My friend has a bunch of family in Vegas that i could possibly stay with and i've been thinking of going out to there for a while anyway. So if the two could coincide then it wouldn't be a waste. (i'm just throwing ideas out there right now)
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
willpower102 said:
Two more questions: What kind of evidence would i need to support it as an intent to defraud. Would the fact that he gave false addresses, phone numbers and emails from a husmail account be enough? (also wonder if he's not posing as the person from the false info which would be identity theft as well)
It MIGHT be enough. Even if it were enough, the odds of TN successfully identifying a suspect in AZ and then issuing an arrest warrant with extradition is very slim.

If it ends up just a civil case, what could i then do? Would i have to go to court in phoenix and how would i initiate that?
It's probably a small claims action which means you'd have to go yourself and handle it. As I previously posted, you can count on at least two subsequent trips and appearances for a total of three. I hope air fare is cheap from TN to AZ.

My friend has a bunch of family in Vegas that i could possibly stay with and i've been thinking of going out to there for a while anyway. So if the two could coincide then it wouldn't be a waste. (i'm just throwing ideas out there right now)
It's possible, but it's likely to take a few months from filing to the first court date in small claims court.

How much are you out? Is it worth turning your life upside down? I got hosed on an $1,800 transmission job across state when I moved and it was not worth it for me to go to small claims court ... unless your claim is at least double that, it might be cheaper to just suck it up and stay away from these kinds of sales in the future.

- Carl
 
damn. I haven't made a mistake this stupid in a while. I just got excited at first and when he actually called me to talk on the phone and "verify" all his info. I was sold. Alright. You've got me convinced. It's just extremely disheartening to know that a large chunk of my student loans and food money for the next five months is gone.

Can i get in trouble for calling him over and over at his job, cell, phone, house phone, etc? The last incident i had with amazon like this the guy kept threatening to go to the police about harassment.
 
something else i just thought of.
Paypal says they can give all of this guys info out as long as they are contacted by a law enforcement agency. I would also think that they could request current information registered to cell phones from the carrier right?

I'm assuming there's NO way the police would give me this kind of information, but would a PI have access to the same info?
 
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