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  1. #1
    civic96 is offline Junior Member
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    Exclamation Business Fraud?!

    What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state? North Carolina. Here's the situation:
    I went with my brother to a 4 Wheeler dealership to co-sign for a 4 Wheeler for him. We got there, looked around, and he found the one he wanted. We sat down with the salesman, and he had us sign a paper to check our credit. He comes back and tells my brother that he'll need a deposit (which he didn't have at the time). 3 days later, my brother calls me from there and tells me that "He needs me to come back up there to sign the papers". I told him I had plans and I couldn't just drop what I was doing to go help him. The salesman then asks me "if I'm going to be up there to sign the papers". I told him "Yeah, but not today". Well, later that day, my brother comes home with the 4 Wheeler. I figured that he just got it on his own, and didn't need me to co-sign so I didn't think anything else of it. Come to find out, the salesman told my brother to "Just sign his name just like it looks on his drivers license" (which the dealership had a copy of). What can I do about this? Would I have any chance of taking them to court and winning? The dealership says they have videotape they can go back and look at to see if I was actually here on the day of signing. I told them to go ahead. They also told me if I did "sue" them, then they were going to get my brother for "obtaining property under false pretenses". Is this possible when the salesman let him take the 4 wheeler? Thanks for any help!
    Last edited by civic96; 11-05-2005 at 07:50 PM.
  2. #2
    JETX is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by civic96
    What can I do about this?
    This one is pretty easy.
    All you have to do is contact the local police department and file a criminal forgery complaint against your brother. During his trial, he can offer his explanation that the dealer told him to do it.

    Would I have any chance of taking them to court and winning?
    Uhhhhh, no.
    At this point, you have absolutely NO evidence, other then the criminals statement, that they did anything wrong.

    They also told me if I did "sue" them, then they were going to get my brother for "obtaining property under false pretenses". Is this possible when the salesman let him take the 4 wheeler?
    Yep. They could have told him anything that they wanted... the only criminal conduct was in your brother forging YOUR name.
  3. #3
    civic96 is offline Junior Member
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    Business Fraud?

    No I don't have any evidence right now, but I will as soon as he reviews the video tape showing that I wasn't there. I'm not looking to get my brother in trouble, even though he did sign my name. The company should have never let the 4 wheeler leave the premises without me actually there to sign, and the salesman should've never told him to sign my name. The sale should've never happened period, he should've told my brother to come back when we were together. That's why I'm not trying to press forgery charges. There should be something dealing with business fraud I can get the company for. Especially since their "mistake" (which is what they claim it may be), has already affected my credit.
  4. #4
    JETX is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by civic96
    No I don't have any evidence right now, but I will as soon as he reviews the video tape showing that I wasn't there.
    And how will that help you. They have NO requirement to tell you anything about the tape. And even if they did, what do you expect it to PROVE?? That you weren't there?? That means nothing. There are lots of reasons they could give for your signature on the form... but you're not on the tape.

    I'm not looking to get my brother in trouble, even though he did sign my name.
    Then you have NO case or claim.

    The company should have never let the 4 wheeler leave the premises without me actually there to sign
    Possibly... but that decision has nothing to do with you. They can let him drive THEIR vehicle all they want. Heck, they can even sell it to him without your permission.

    and the salesman should've never told him to sign my name.
    Curious... what PROOF do you have that this was the salesman's idea?? Are you sure your brother didn't say, "Ah, heck, I'll go ahead and sign my brothers name... he won't care"..... or any of 10 other possible scenarios??

    The sale should've never happened period, he should've told my brother to come back when we were together. That's why I'm not trying to press forgery charges. There should be something dealing with business fraud I can get the company for. Especially since their "mistake" (which is what they claim it may be), has already affected my credit.
    Okay... let me try to explain this one more time. The fault is in your brother actually FORGING your name. Unless the tape shows the salesman holding a gun to his head and forcing him to sign.... you have NO case against them. It was entirely within your brothers control to forge your signature or not. He is the one at fault here.
  5. #5
    civic96 is offline Junior Member
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    I understand where you're coming from when you say my brother is at fault for signing my name, but if it was a "good" business deal, would they have let him sign my name without me being there? Even if he said "Oh my brother won't care if I sign his name...", the business would still be in the wrong for letting him sign my name as a co-signer without me there.
  6. #6
    BelizeBreeze is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by civic96
    I understand where you're coming from when you say my brother is at fault for signing my name, but if it was a "good" business deal, would they have let him sign my name without me being there? Even if he said "Oh my brother won't care if I sign his name...", the business would still be in the wrong for letting him sign my name as a co-signer without me there.
    Please take $5,000 out of petty cash, hire a local attorney, sue the dealership then sue the attorney for failure to win your no-win case.

    That should keep you busy for a few years.
  7. #7
    civic96 is offline Junior Member
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    Exclamation How could I not have a case?

    I'm getting the feeling that none of you guys are lawyers or even know anything about the law.
  8. #8
    BelizeBreeze is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by civic96
    I'm getting the feeling that none of you guys are lawyers or even know anything about the law.
    .

    But, as Jet and I have both told you, sue the dealership. That's your right.
    Last edited by m martin; 11-07-2005 at 11:04 AM.
  9. #9
    Motherto6 is offline Member
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    OP ~ If anyone else other than YOUR Brother were to FORGE your name, you would have NO problem having charges pressed against them. You are angry, but because you have a relationship with your Brother, you don't want him to get into trouble. So you turn to the only other "logical" people to be mad at (who just happens to have deep pockets) and want to sue them. Maybe this was all just a scam perpetrated by you and your Borther to get the car dealership. Who knows. The answer is that if you pursue this, the ONLY person who will lose is your Brother. Is that clear enough for ya?
    And that doesn't need to come from an Attorney. That is common sense. You need some of that.
  10. #10
    JETX is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by civic96
    I'm getting the feeling that none of you guys are lawyers or even know anything about the law.
    Why?? Just because we are giving you the correct answer and it is not what you want to hear???

    Tell 'ya what Leroy.....
    Go ahead and sue the dealership. Spend your money. Then, after it is all over, come back here and admit we were right. Deal??
  11. #11
    gawm is offline Senior Member
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    you were going to sign the papers for your brother anyway, why are you making a big deal about it. you can give someone permission to sign your name and it's not considered forgery(which is probably what happened here) then you two thought you can pull one over on the dealership.
  12. #12
    DRlegal is offline Junior Member
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    Exclamation

    It would fall under Title 18 Identity Theft

    If you file a criminal complaint, your brother will be an accomplice, so be careful there.
    As the victim, it is well within your rights to file a criminal complaint.


    As far as a civil action, I feel stongly that a judge would, on motion for summary judgement, dismiss for "failure to state a claim where relief may be granted".

    But speak with your local attorney before making any decisions.


    GOOD LUCK


    The view expressed above should not be construed in any sense as a guarantee or unqualified prediction of the result. Litigation is
    inherently a risky undertaking and for that reason the possibility always exists that, contrary to expectation, the claim will [or will not] be successful
  13. #13
    civic96 is offline Junior Member
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    The dealership has a "POLICY"(meaning it may not be legal but its how they do things) saying ONLY husband and wife can sign for each other if one can't be at the signing of the contract. NOT brothers. Which is exactly what the "big guy" at the dealership told us. If that's the case, I wonder why they would let my brother sign for me. Even then, husband and wife or brothers, its not legal. I talked to an attorney and she said I would HAVE to be present when the papers are signed. I'm not looking to get money out of this...I just want my name off the papers. That can't happen without an attorney because the dealership won't let it. They have a copy of my signature for a credit review, and then they have the signature on the contract. You can tell its not the same, but yet they're still saying I signed it. I know I said I was going to co-sign for my brother, but when he ends up getting the 4 wheeler almost a year ago without me signing any papers, I figured he had enough of a down payment to get it himself. It was a shock to see my name on there. I understand my brother was also in the wrong for signing my name. But come to find out, this isn't the only time this has happened at this particular dealership, which is also what the guy said. Maybe they just want their commission off the sale. I'm not sure. But I do know they didn't do their business like they should have. They signed off on the ATV course he was suppose to take before getting the 4 wheeler too. Doesn't that show some kind of negligence with the dealership there? Think I'm wrong if you want, but you won't know until something like this happens to you. I'm not trying to be rude like some of you people, I just want to know all of my options. All I want is my name off the contract.
  14. #14
    BelizeBreeze is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by civic96
    The dealership has a "POLICY"(meaning it may not be legal but its how they do things) saying ONLY husband and wife can sign for each other if one can't be at the signing of the contract. NOT brothers. Which is exactly what the "big guy" at the dealership told us. If that's the case, I wonder why they would let my brother sign for me. Even then, husband and wife or brothers, its not legal. I talked to an attorney and she said I would HAVE to be present when the papers are signed. I'm not looking to get money out of this...I just want my name off the papers. That can't happen without an attorney because the dealership won't let it. They have a copy of my signature for a credit review, and then they have the signature on the contract. You can tell its not the same, but yet they're still saying I signed it. I know I said I was going to co-sign for my brother, but when he ends up getting the 4 wheeler almost a year ago without me signing any papers, I figured he had enough of a down payment to get it himself. It was a shock to see my name on there. I understand my brother was also in the wrong for signing my name. But come to find out, this isn't the only time this has happened at this particular dealership, which is also what the guy said. Maybe they just want their commission off the sale. I'm not sure. But I do know they didn't do their business like they should have. They signed off on the ATV course he was suppose to take before getting the 4 wheeler too. Doesn't that show some kind of negligence with the dealership there? Think I'm wrong if you want, but you won't know until something like this happens to you. I'm not trying to be rude like some of you people, I just want to know all of my options. All I want is my name off the contract.
    Please take about $5,000 out of petty case and sue the dealership.

    Then come back here and whine somemore when the court refuses to add the dealership to the suit.
  15. #15
    JETX is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRlegal
    It would fall under Title 18 Identity Theft
    I just LOVE these new idiots who come on here trying to make people think that they know what they are talking about.
    There is NOTHING 'title 18' about this at all.
    First, Title 18 is NOT about identity theft. It is a LARGE group of federal laws called "CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE". It describes virtually EVERY federal crime. Take a look:
    [url]http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I.html[/url]

    Second, there is NOTHING in title 18 about identity theft.
    Third, even if there were, it ONLY applies to FEDERAL crimes. There is NOTHING in this thread to even suggest federal jurisdictiton.

    If you file a criminal complaint, your brother will be an accomplice, so be careful there.
    What a stupid statement.
    Brother, the one who CREATED the forgery is NOT an accomplice. He is the PRINCIPLE!!

    As the victim, it is well within your rights to file a criminal complaint.
    Finally, a correct statement. Yep. The OP (victim) can file a criminal complaint, as has been recommended by almost all of the responders to this thread. And yep, the criminal complaint will be against the OP's brother.
    There is NOTHING in this thread to PROVE that the dealership did anything illegal.

    As far as a civil action, I feel stongly that a judge would, on motion for summary judgement, dismiss for "failure to state a claim where relief may be granted".
    Partly correct. The judge will dismiss the suit.... for lack of valid claim.

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