Help with 2nd degree murder/manslaughter case:

[Pi_1]

*Michigan*

A close family member of mine has recently been charged with 2nd degree murder. I'll call him/her "F" for the remainder of this post. We currently have a court appointed attorney working on the case, but just had a few questions I wanted to ask to check up on what he has been telling us, since I don't necessarily trust court appointed attorneys all that much, LoL.

F was walking down the street near his/her home when an old friend called over from across the street. The old friend, whom F had not seen in several years, was at a house party and asked F to stay for awhile. F was with his/her significant other, but agreed to stay for a few minutes. F was drinking, and was lightly intoxicated.

After being there and chatting for several minutes, F called his/her significant other a ""stupid, crazy bitch", in joking. It might sound like a harsh joke, but is in fact a reference to a well known joke in our circle of friends, taken from a comedy CD we listen to. F's significant other laughed, well aware that the comment was indeed a joke. An older man nearby at the party, however, did not understand the comment was made as a joke and confronted F. F repeatedly tried to assure the man that there was no malice intended, and explain the joke to him, but the man had obviously been drinking and continued to confront F. F held out his/her hand to shake several times and told the angry man "it was just a joke", but he slapped F's hand away repeatedly. He then began to grab and push F lightly as he cursed at him. F and his/her significant other turned around and started to leave, but the man again threatened them and said "don't turn your back on me, bitch, you're liable to get stabbed". It was at this point F turned and hit the man in the head. F hit the man a total of 5 or 6 times, once while he lay on the ground. F then got off the man, but upon seeing several of the man's friends rushing toward him/her, F ran off, leaving his/her significant other behind. The man attempted to get up and make chase, still yelling obscenities, but was too woozy.

Police and an ambulance came, and the man was described at that point as "semi-conscious". On the way to the hospital, the man passed away from head injuries. F turned himself/herself in the following day, and was immediately charged with 2nd degree murder.

Now comes a tricky part.....most of the people at the party were the man's friends and F only knew one or two people. When questioned, several of the man's family members claimed F hit the man 30-40 times. F's significant other, however, even though he/she hadn't talked to F since the incident, gave almost exactly the same recounting of events that F did. Another witness, an aqcuaintance of F's, gave a similar story to F's. Family members of the man claimed he wasn't drinking at all, and that he had simply politely asked F to leave when F went crazy.

It has since been learned that the man had indeed been drinking, and had a blood alcohol level of 4 times the legal limit in our state. It has also been learned the man has recently been in prison, but for what we cannot discern since the police/prosecutor have sealed the man's records pending a court hearing. The house at which the incident took place is also a well known crackhouse, and it is likely there will be other intoxicants beside alcohol found in the man's blood when the full autopsy results are released. I suspect the man has assaults on his record. F has one prior misdemeanor assault on his/her record as well. Preliminary autopsy findings say that the man's death was caused by severe trauma to the back of the head, which would have been caused by falling, further discrediting the family's story of F beating him to death.

F's lawyer has told him/her that there is no difference between involuntary and voluntary manslaughter, so they shouldn't attempt to work out a plea bargain for involuntary manslaughter, since it will be pointless. If there is no difference, I don't see what the problem would be in getting the prosecutor to agree to involuntary manslaughter. The lawyer has only been to see F once in the last month or so**************this was when he waived F's preliminary hearing. Does anyone know if there is a difference between involuntary and voluntary manslaughter, and if so, what that difference is?

The prosecutor has sent F a packet of paperwork asking F to sign it and return it as soon as possible. By signing it, F would be pleading to "Manslaughter" and agreeing to a reccommended sentence of 6 years, plus 3 months boot camp at the end of the 6 years. F's lawyer has not contacted F regarding the paperwork, so obviously F does not plan to sign it. Neither F (nor I) have been able to reach the lawyer since the preliminary hearing a week ago.

I have several questions I was hoping someone could answer for me that I'll detail here:

1) Is there a difference between involuntary and voluntary manslaughter, and if so, what?
2) Does the 6 year + boot camp (manslaughter) deal appear fair given the circumstances?
3) Is the attorney's bahavior in the case normal?
4) Does anyone think there is any possibility of getting the charges pleaded down to something BELOW manslaughter, given the evidence?
5) I would like to get F into a program that would actually benefit F, rather than sending F to some horrible prison with murderers and rapists. Are there any such programs available in Michigan aside from the boot camp, and if so, what are the options?
6) How should I go about asking the judge that eventually does the sentencing (or prosecutor) to send F to a beneficial program rather than Jackson prison?

Any help you can give me in this matter would be GREATLY appreciated. I certainly don't think F deserves 6+ years in prison, since the other man started the altercation. I DO believe F should suffer some sort of penalty, just not that many years and not to rot in a prison with a bunch of scumbags far worse than F, which will undoubtedly just make F worse. Any opinions or answers to my questions will be an immense help. I thank you for your time......

 

[xylene]

He's kind of F'ed.

"F hit the man a total of 5 or 6 times, once while he lay on the ground. "

This circumstance is not going to be resolved quickly... wanting resolved quickly will not help F.

1) Is there a difference between involuntary and voluntary manslaughter, and if so, what?

I suggest you consult with google on this.

2) Does the 6 year + boot camp (manslaughter) deal appear fair given the circumstances?

The person best equipped to answer this is F's lawyer, that said, he was charged with murder.

3) Is the attorney's bahavior in the case normal?

A public defender is a very busy. F will get all the support he needs. I do not understand what is the problem behavior...

4) Does anyone think there is any possibility of getting the charges pleaded down to something BELOW manslaughter, given the evidence?

Its not IMPOSSIBLE... but is it likely? I don't really know. The public defender will be of much help.

5) I would like to get F into a program that would actually benefit F, rather than sending F to some horrible prison with murderers and rapists. Are there any such programs available in Michigan aside from the boot camp, and if so, what are the options?

Boot camp is the best option short of jail. You are not is much of a position to she him rehabbed. you need to accept that F killed a man in arguement, and not just in self defence.

6) How should I go about asking the judge that eventually does the sentencing (or prosecutor) to send F to a beneficial program rather than Jackson prison?

That is a job for F's lawyer. You should inform him that you would be willing to testify at a sentencing hearing.

Good luck.

 

[Happy Trails]

Does anyone know if there is a difference between involuntary and voluntary manslaughter, and if so, what that difference is?

Involuntary manslaughter is defined as an unintentionally killing. However, there is a "catch 22" in there.

Voluntary manslaughter has certain elements that need to be met, such as:

(1) the defendant must kill in the heat of passion,
(2) the passion must be caused by an adequate provocation, and
(3) there cannot be a lapse of time during which a reasonable person could control his passions.

This lengthy, pdf link may shed some more light on this subject.

http://courts.michigan.gov/supremecourt/Clerk/Opinions-03-04-Term/123553-6.pdf

 

[Pi_1]

The reason I am posting here asking for assistance is because the court appointed lawyer hasn't been available and refuses to return phone calls. I understand they're very busy, but it's getting kind of ridiculous, at least in my opinion.

We saw him at the preliminary hearing for 5 minutes, long enough for him to waive the preliminary. He then rushed out without speaking with us or F. We caught him and asked him to speak with us for a minute, but he declined and said he had to leave and to call him. I asked for a business card or his phone number, but was told he didn't have any and wasn't sure of the new number. He said just to look him up. I did this, and have left several messages over a 3 week span, but haven't recieved a call back.

F has also repeatedly called and written him without reaching him or recieving any response. F has been attempting to get hold of the attorney for even longer than we have. He did not come to speak with F before the preliminary hearing, and has not really spoken with F about any aspects of the case. F told him verbally and by letter that it was fine to speak with us and to let us make decisions regarding the case, so that shouldn't be the problem with getting him to call back.

Today F got another letter from the prosecutor saying F has 1 more day to decide on the plea agreement, and after that it will not be valid and the case will be taken to trial. Obviously F does not plan to agree to anything without speaking with the attorney, but we're not sure what to do at this point.

I'm wondering if this behavior is normal, or if we should expect more contact for either us, F, or both? Is it normal to not speak with a client before waiving the preliminary hearing? Should we hire a lawyer at this point to take over the case, given the circumstances? Are we expecting too much from a court appointed attorney? Even though I'm sure they're busy, someone's life is on the line here and the lack of contact is somewhat discouraging.

Any thoughts on the subject, on how to proceed, and further thoughts on my previous questions will be greatly appreciated. As I said, I'm asking here because the attorney seems to be unavailable and time is running out. I would love to ask the attorney these things, but have been unable to do so, and would just like some opinions on the case from knowledgeable people such as yourselves. I realize that it is difficult to make reccomendations by just reading the information I have presented, but any thoughts on any aspect of the case would be appreciated and helpful to us in deciding how to proceed. I assure you any thoughts posted here will be taken strictly as another person's opinion and will not be relied upon to determine our course of action regarding the case, as I realize it is only possible to make a "best guess" given the information I have presented. The purpose of asking here is just to get our bearings and recieve some opinions/input, not to recieve any real legal advice that will be relied upon. The more thoughts you all can provide us with, the better. Thank you much......

 

[calatty]

Involuntary manslaughter is basically a negligent killing without an intent to kill. Voluntary manslaughter is basically a heat of passion killing. Second-degree murder is an intentional killing, but without premeditation. It looks like under Michigan law the punishment is the same, so it doesn't make a difference which one he pleads to. Given the facts you have described, in my opinion he should accept the plea. He has no chance of a not guilty verdict based on self-defense, because the victim was not coming at him with deadly force, like a knife or gun. He might well get convicted of second-degree murder based on having punched the guy 30 times, enough to demonstrate an intent to kill. All the factors you list, like that it was a crack house, or that the victim was drunk, the victim's prior convictions, legally have no bearing on his guilt of the crimes. 6 years is a good deal considering a guy is dead at F's hands.

 

[Pi_1]

Hey all, just a little update to the case and looking for some further advice......

F's lawyer apparently waived the preliminary hearing based on the deal I mentioned earlier. The deal was later taken off the table, and a new one offered, which is currently, according to the lawyer, 15-25 years on a 2nd degree murder plea with parole possibility after 20 years.

The lawyer refuses to call anyone back, and with the trial date fast approaching at the beginning of January, has still never been in to see F aside from at the preliminary hearing for 5 minutes or so when he waived the hearing. He has not answered several letters F has written to him, and when we did get him cornered at the preliminary, said he had to go and couldn't talk.

New evidence has surfaced since last I posted as well.

The autopsy showed that the victim didn't die from injuries resulting from F's attack, but rather due to the victim choking on his own blood and saliva. The man had emphysima (sp?), and had a history of coughing up his own blood. When the EMS arrived, they apparently gave the man a drug called Atropine, thinking he was having a heart attack. In reality he was not. One of Atropine's well known side effects is constriction of the throat muscles making it difficult to swallow.

Also, after getting more witnesses' statements, most agree that F hit the man 5 or 6 times total, and stopped as soon as someone yelled out "stop!". F has stated that the man threatened to "stab F" repeatedly and was reaching into his pocket prior to the attack, which is why F attacked him in the first place. The initial property report we received showed no items in the man's pockets, but upon further investigation, a knife was reported and supposedly photographed and taken into evidence by the coroner when the body arrived. Somehow, the knife disappeared after that and was never officially catalogued by police, leading us to wonder what happened and where it went. The coroner's photos of the knife are "missing" and the only evidence we have that it ever existed is the initial report the coroner filed.

The trial date is approaching in two weeks, no one has spoken with the lawyer, none of F's witnesses have received a subpeona yet, and we're quite worried. Any further advice for us on this situation?

 

[Pi_1]

Ok, trial has been postponed over and over because the prosecutor is "too busy". No one has talked to the lawyer yet, including the defendent. Any further advice on the questions I posed in my last post? Everything still applies.

 

[seniorjudge]

Ok, trial has been postponed over and over because the prosecutor is "too busy". No one has talked to the lawyer yet, including the defendent. Any further advice on the questions I posed in my last post? Everything still applies.

Why do you refer to yourself (in the third person no less) as "F"?

 

[Pi_1]

Hmmm, .perhaps because I'm not talking about myself. "F" has been sitting in jail this entire time, nearly a year now. I doubt it would be possible for me to type this if it was me, in a county jail no less, LoL. Don't believe they have internet access there. Bail is set at $650,000. Just a friend that I care about and am worried is not getting proper representation. I thought that was what these boards were for......legal questions. Apparently I was mistaken and it is instead for people to post snide remarks in response to legitimate questions.

Anyway, what does it matter, even if it was me, how I would refer to myself? I obviously don't want to post the person's real name, for many reasons. Just don't have enough money to help "F" get a paid attorney, obviously, and was looking for advice. Geez, I'm sorry, I had been advised there were nice, helpful people here. If you'd rather post snide, mocking remarks instead of being helpful, I suppose I'll look elsewhere. Just trying to stand by a friend in need, despite the awful circumstances. Doesn't much matter anymore anyway, as the trial is now supposedly scheduled for this coming Thursday.

I just wanted advice before my visit with "F" tomorrow. I mean, evidence missing, seemingly negligent EMS workers......"F" is pretty stressed out about the whole thing, as am I, especially since "F" hasn't yet spoken with the lawyer and "F"'s main witness has not yet received a subpeona, leading us to worry the attorney didn't bother to file it . They're pressing for murder, and won't offer any sort of deal either, most likely because they hyped the case up in the paper in the days after and don't want to appear "soft" now, despite the facts of the case pointing to a lesser charge. If this isn't a clear case of manslaughter, I don't know what is. "F" could get life in prison for this if convicted. Pretty serious, and not deserving of your mocking remarks.

Any suggestions or real advice is still extremely welcome, and thanks so much to everyone that posted legitimate, helpful suggestions. It was and is greatly appreciated.

 

[tranquility]

If this isn't a clear case of manslaughter, I don't know what is.

There is an outline taught in law school related to homicide. The killing of a human being by another human being. There are many points to consider along the way. I'm not going to work it all the way through for many reasons, but the end result does not seem to end up in manslaughter. The acts were intentional (albeit not the results) and there was no heat of passion or adequate provocation. It does not seem as either voluntary or involuntary.

Since there does not seem a premeditation, that leave us with murder (aka 2nd degree). Here, with the blows before the victim hit the ground, we may have a defense of self defense. If F reasonably believed a knife were about to be pulled on him--he is justified to use a reasonable amount of force to protect himself. Most here would agree the blows when he was standing may fall under that but once the victim was on the ground F should have left and any further blows was unreasonable. That's not the law, that's just what the jury of the forum believe. So, the defense is out.

However, we still have the problem of intent. The person must have the intent to kill. Sometimes we refer intent by the nature of the act. Shooting someone with a gun, using a bomb, poision or something like that are often in the murder statutes as a substitute for intent. Punching a person, even when on the ground, would not fall under such statutes. So, the prosecution will have to convince, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the series of punches add up to intent to kill. That is another question for the jury. They will have friend after friend of the victim come to the stand and testify to the wanton violence, racial slurs and intense rage of F when he was delivering the blows. The defense then puts up, at most, two people who will say the opposite. (F and ex) Not exactly, but you get the idea. It will be up to the jury to decide.

Finally, the medical evidence could be helpful in two ways. The first is if you can prove the person was going to die without the attack on him or as a result of the blows which would have a defense. Then it would not be killing by a human being, but a death by other means. This is an incredible long-shot, but it is possible in theory. Second is that it does tend to show the force used in the blows was not such to show intent to kill. It was protective force and the situation merely became worse because of circumstance. I think this is a good argument. (The jury may be swayed.) The problem becomes, what then? A guy's dead. Are we going to just let this other guy literally get away with murder?

This is where the pre-trial strategy come in. If the prosecution includes the possibility of involuntary manslaughter, the jury might seize this as a way out. He didn't intend to kill. There was extenuating circumstances. But there is someone dead. I don't think it is quite the proper place for the act, but *if* you can get the jury there you might get it. Maybe. But, especially if it were a big case in the news, the prosecution may not present that as a possibility. Murder or nothing in order to force the jury's hand. Who knows?

But all that's just theory. None of it has any meaning without F's attorney on board. At best it will be hard negotiations, at worst it will be a long and nasty court battle.

 

[Kane]

P1, there's not much anyone here can do, if the case is about to go to trial.

If the lawyer is as bad as you say he is, I'm sorry. It sounds like your friend's life is about to take another major turn for the worse. He should tell the judge he wants another attorney. Really, though, he should have said something before now. If he's been in jail for a year already, the judge is going to want to know why he waited until the last minutel before brining it up.

I do have a question, though. How come none of his friends or family have stepped up to the plate?

I am sincerely curious. Why so much righteous indignation, when most if y'all won't even take collect calls from your 'friends' anymore, much less put up a single dollar for their defense?

 

[Pi_1]

Hi and thanks to both of you for the extremely informative posts. They are a big help, even if it is at the last minute.

Let me answer a couple of the questions you posed. First, no, the prosecutor wouldn't offer any type of deal in the end. Apparently the initial deal I mentioned was just speculation and was never actually offered. The only deal they have offered is to just "plead guilty" to the murder charge. Next up, I don't think they will be offering the jury manslaughter as an option, but that obviously remains to be seen. The paper here reported "the prosecutor will be seeking the maximum penalty, which is life in prison". "F" is 21 years old. "F" has two prior convictions. A MIP when "F" was 15 and a misdemeanor assault charge from several years ago. Doesn't seem logical to me**************

As far as why no one stepped up to pay for legal costs......well......your guess is as good as mine really. I offered to pay 60% of the initial costs to hire an attorney who is a friend of my family, but couldn't get "F"'s family to contribute and the deal fell apart. The attorney we know was going to give us a discounted rate, but I couldn't get the full amount together and no one else was willing or able, aside from a couple hundred dollars from friends. I'm in my early 20's and in college, so it would have taken my entire savings to contribute the 60%, but I would have been glad to do it if someone would have stepped up to contribute the final 40%. "F"'s family and I actually got in quite the fight about it, but that's not a story to tell here.

Finally, the reason "F" didn't complain about the current attorney sooner is that "F" was advised not to. "F"'s family advised not to, probably because they didn't want to fit the bill for another attorney. The attorney that is a family friend of mine also advised me that "F" shouldn't ask the judge for anything like that, since he knows the judge and it would make him angry and less likely to provide a fair trial for "F". He said that it would anger the judge and nothing good would come out of it, so unless we were going to hire another attorney, "F" should keep his mouth shut and stick it out with the attorney that was provided. He also stated that if we DID hire another attorney, him or someone else, that "F" should not provide any commentary on why "F" wanted to switch.

My family attorney also told me the other day that the particular judge "F" drew writes his own jury instructions rather than giving out the normal, generic one. He stated that the way the judge's jury instructions were worded puts the defense at a distinct disadvantage. Great!

I'm not sure if I mentioned it before, but apparently the man who "F" fought with had a blood alcohol level of around 5 times the legal limit as well, just FYI if it makes any difference. It certainly tends to discredit several stories of the witnesses that stated he had hardly been drinking and was completely sober and calm when the problem arose.

Oh, and finally, a new development**************.I was just subpoenaed by the prosecutor. I received a letter in the mail yesterday. I'm not sure why they would subpoena me since I hadn't even spoken with "F" since a couple of days previous to the tragedy and not again until several days after. Any ideas why they would do this? I was not subpoenaed either of the other times the trial was scheduled and then postponed, although I know other people were.

Thanks again for all the help, ideas, explanations, etc. It is hugely appreciated and any further thoughts you have would be welcomed.

 

[Pi_1]

Hey all, just wanted to drop by and let you know how the trial turned out. A verdict was reached today (Friday). "F" was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter, which was offered after all. Pretty ridiculous that they wouldn't offer "F" a deal for it in the first place. Anyway, the prosecutor was a real shark and I think came off as more of an a-hole to the jury than anything, helping "F"'s case. "F"'s lawyer did a serviceable job I suppose, but I tend to think "F" might have been found not guilty by reason of self-defense had the lawyer done a better job. The attorney was even late for court once, and throughout the entire trial, never objected once to anything the prosecution did. The attorney never even bothered to cross examine half of the witnesses, and only called one witness herself, "F".

All of the witnesses stories varied wildly, and most changed drastically from the initial police reports. I think that helped "F"'s case a great deal, since no one told even close to a similar story except for "F" and "F"'s significant other. The disappearing evidence couldn't have helped their case either. The jury only took one hour to deliberate, and never asked for any of the exhibits**************I was told.

So fairly good news for us I suppose. Not the best that could have happened, but someone did die after all. Thanks to everyone that helped us out and took time out of their day to lend a hand, we all appreciate it greatly.

One last question, if anyone has any idea**************.what are the sentencing guidelines for involuntary manslaughter in Michigan? "F" has now been proven to have no prior convictions, just one arrest that was never pursued apparently. Anyone have any idea what kind of time "F" is looking at? I'd be grateful if someone could post the sentencing guidelines for this crime, as well as what kind of sentence people with similar charges and circumstances have received if they know of any. Also, does anyone know if boot camp would be an option in Michigan for this type of crime/sentence? Any insight you all could give us would be forever appreciated.

By the way, sentencing was set for July 13. Seems to be quite a long time**************"F" will have been in jail for well over a year at that point. It will all be time served, I suppose, though. Anyway, thanks again all......I'll be looking forward to hearing from you on the sentencing issue.