Intruder breaking into shed - lawful to use lethal force?

[swalsh411]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? PA

Last week a motorist ran out of gas and broke into my neighbor's shed to steal gas.

I have a large shed about 15 feet from my back door. I don't keep it locked but may consider it. It has a mower, weed wacker, gas, wheelbarrow, usual shed stuff. If I saw an intruder going into my shed could I legally confront them (armed) and hold them for the police? If he came at me or made a threatening gesture would it be lawful to use lethal force to defend myself?

In other words, is an outdoor shed considered part of your "dwelling"? It is without question legal to kill an intruder in your home.

Note: I am not asking if it is *tactically* wise to confront an intruder in your shed who is showing no intention of breaking into your house. I acknowledge that is a valid consideration but I am really interested in the legal aspects of doing so. And please no lectures about "a life is not worth a gallon of gas".

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

In PA you can't get away with going cowboy on them IMO.

 

[swalsh411]

How is it "cowboy" to confront an intruder on my own property?

Last time I checked, "cowboys" herded cattle so I don't even understand the reference.

 

[Ohiogal]

How is it "cowboy" to confront an intruder on my own property?

Last time I checked, "cowboys" herded cattle so I don't even understand the reference.

If someone is breaking into your shed CALL the police. You don't get to be a vigilante. Why would you kill someone over stealing gardening shears? Are you looking for an excuse to shed some blood?

 

[Mass_Shyster]

In other words, is an outdoor shed considered part of your "dwelling"?

No .

 

[LdiJ]

If someone is breaking into your shed CALL the police. You don't get to be a vigilante. Why would you kill someone over stealing gardening shears? Are you looking for an excuse to shed some blood?

I agree...it would be incredibly stupid for someone to even leave their home if they notice someone breaking into their shed. The sensible and rational thing to do is to call the police.

 

[swalsh411]

I agree...it would be incredibly stupid for someone to even leave their home if they notice someone breaking into their shed. The sensible and rational thing to do is to call the police.

The police take minimum 20 minutes to respond where I live.

Why would you kill someone over stealing gardening shears?

It's not about the value of what is being stolen. It's about the threat the the occupants of the house. There are plenty of things in the shed that could be used as weapons.

An intruder has already shown disregard for the sanctity of another person's home and property. In my mind the knowingly risked their life when they crossed that line. But I guess legally the homeowner would have to wait until the intruder made some move like he was going to try and get into the house.

 

[LdiJ]

The police take minimum 20 minutes to respond where I live.



It's not about the value of what is being stolen. It's about the threat the the occupants of the house. There are plenty of things in the shed that could be used as weapons.

Still though, you lock down the house tight and wait out the 20 minutes. If and only if there is a clear and imminent threat to the occupants of the house can you take action.

 

[Ohiogal]

The police take minimum 20 minutes to respond where I live.



It's not about the value of what is being stolen. It's about the threat the the occupants of the house. There are plenty of things in the shed that could be used as weapons.

An intruder has already shown disregard for the sanctity of another person's home and property. In my mind the knowingly risked their life when they crossed that line. But I guess legally the homeowner would have to wait until the intruder made some move like he was going to try and get into the house.

There is NO threat to the occupants if someone is in the shed. Do you have a conscience? Or do you honestly believe that killing someone stealing gardening shears/gas would not affect you? An intruder stealing gas is NOT necessarily a threat to anyone. That is like saying a shop owner should be able to KILL any SHOPLIFTER! Because by golly gee if you are stealing a pack of gum, you have shown disregard for someone else's property and deserve to be killed immediately because you are a danger to the other people in the store.

 

[swalsh411]

There is NO threat to the occupants if someone is in the shed. Do you have a conscience? Or do you honestly believe that killing someone stealing gardening shears/gas would not affect you? An intruder stealing gas is NOT necessarily a threat to anyone. That is like saying a shop owner should be able to KILL any SHOPLIFTER! Because by golly gee if you are stealing a pack of gum, you have shown disregard for someone else's property and deserve to be killed immediately because you are a danger to the other people in the store.

It's not the same thing at all because a shop invites the public to come in. It's not violating a basic premise of a lawful society (don't trespass) to enter a store. It's not even close to the same thing and it's intellectually dishonest to attempt to argue that it is because you are putting the emphasis on the cash value of the item being stolen and that's not the point. Of course I wouldn't kill somebody over a gallon of gas but it's not about the gas.

I guess I just don't like the idea of having to hide myself in my home while an intruder violates the sanctity of my home steals things I have worked hard for. I shouldn't have to do that.

I entirely reject the premise that you should ever have to hide yourself in your home like some frightened animal while an intruder on your property does what they wish.

Still though, you lock down the house tight and wait out the 20 minutes. If and only if there is a clear and imminent threat to the occupants of the house can you take action.

Like some terrified zebra hoping the lion doesn't return. In my own home. Not gonna happen.

If anybody else has a different legal perspective on the matter I would love to hear it. Obviously we are not going to agree on the moral aspects of this hypothetical situation when one side thinks the right thing to do is cower behind a locked door on the phone with 911 and hope the police show up.

 

[Ohiogal]

It's not the same thing at all because a shop invites the public to come in. It's not violating a basic premise of a lawful society (don't trespass) to enter a store. It's not even close to the same thing and it's intellectually dishonest to attempt to argue that it is because you are putting the emphasis on the cash value of the item being stolen and that's not the point. Of course I wouldn't kill somebody over a gallon of gas but it's not about the gas.

I guess I just don't like the idea of having to hide myself in my home while an intruder violates the sanctity of my home steals things I have worked hard for. I shouldn't have to do that.

I entirely reject the premise that you should ever have to hide yourself in your home like some frightened animal while an intruder on your property does what they wish.



Like some terrified zebra hoping the lion doesn't return. In my own home. Not gonna happen.

If anybody else has a different legal perspective on the matter I would love to hear it. Obviously we are not going to agree on the moral aspects of this hypothetical situation when one side thinks the right thing to do is cower behind a locked door on the phone with 911 and hope the police show up.

Fine. Shoot anyone that walks on to your property. That is what you want to hear so there. it has been said. You can kill anyone who looks at you funny. Of course don't be surprised if the government disagrees with you and your reasoning and you spend many many years in prison. But you now have been told what you wanted to hear.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

Install cameras and take video of them.

 

[FlyingRon]

Now that we have done denigrated the poster for his alleged violations of morals, lets get back to the actual LEGAL issue.

The PA Castle/Stand Your Ground doctrine is expressed in 18 PaCS 505.

It's a little to lengthy to post http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI/LI/CT/HTM/18/00.005.005.000..HTM

The synopsis is that PA's law is non unequivocal. There are restrictions and pretty much are limited to that which is IMMEDIATELY necessary to prevent unlawful force (to result in death, serious injury, rape, or kidnapping) against you.

No a shed that is not occupied is not a dwelling or residence under the statute.

Note, you don't even get to hold him at gunpoint unless you believe the above are happening either.

 

[LdiJ]

It's not the same thing at all because a shop invites the public to come in. It's not violating a basic premise of a lawful society (don't trespass) to enter a store. It's not even close to the same thing and it's intellectually dishonest to attempt to argue that it is because you are putting the emphasis on the cash value of the item being stolen and that's not the point. Of course I wouldn't kill somebody over a gallon of gas but it's not about the gas.

I guess I just don't like the idea of having to hide myself in my home while an intruder violates the sanctity of my home steals things I have worked hard for. I shouldn't have to do that.

I entirely reject the premise that you should ever have to hide yourself in your home like some frightened animal while an intruder on your property does what they wish.



Like some terrified zebra hoping the lion doesn't return. In my own home. Not gonna happen.

If anybody else has a different legal perspective on the matter I would love to hear it. Obviously we are not going to agree on the moral aspects of this hypothetical situation when one side thinks the right thing to do is cower behind a locked door on the phone with 911 and hope the police show up.

I wasn't commenting on the moral aspect at all. The law permits someone to use deadly force in only very limited circumstances.

As FlyingRon posted, it appears that PA law is such:

The synopsis is that PA's law is non unequivocal. There are restrictions and pretty much are limited to that which is IMMEDIATELY necessary to prevent unlawful force (to result in death, serious injury, rape, or kidnapping) against you.

Which means that if someone is robbing your shed, you are not in imminent danger so that you must protect yourself with deadly force. You can protect yourself by remaining locked inside your house. That may not sit well with you, and it likely wouldn't sit well with a significant number of other people as well. However, it does appear to be what is legally required in a scenario such as you are describing.

 

[Mass_Shyster]

Note, you don't even get to hold him at gunpoint unless you believe the above are happening either.

Does PA consider holding someone at gunpoint "use of deadly force" or is it merely the "threat of deadly force"? (I know that here in Massachusetts, even thinking about shooting someone is considered a deadly sin)