Man Steals Land and is at it Again!!!!!

[SharonNorman1]

What is the name of your state? Texas
First I would like to thank you so much for this forum.

Scenario: There was a property dispute in which my father was charged with assaulting the gentleman that his grandaughter (the property owner) was in the dispute with. Both cases were tried together, for some unknown reason. She lost the property. My father was ordered to pay restitution, which he did not. The gentleman placed a lein on another piece of propert that my daughter owns. My question is can he legally do this.

There was a jury trial and both cases went to the other gentleman. My father is not the owner of the land and never has been. My daughter is an adult and the question is, how can she be held responsible for her grandfather's debt. We filed an appeal and our attorney stated it was denied. He never gave us paperwork to support that decision and now she (my daughter) stands to lose her only inheritance. We have spent much more money than the property is worth. I know that when fight on principal it will cost. What can I do?

My family had stated all along that if the land belongs to this gentleman, he could have it. We paid the taxes every year. All documentation pointed to us being the owner but the judge would not hear it. I am at my wits end wanting to close this and not let a young adult have this burden that has been going on since 1999.

Thank you so much for your response.

 

[Ohiogal]

Her inheritance? Who owned the land before your daughter?

 

[outonbail]

Her inheritance? Who owned the land before your daughter?

I'm leaning towards the guy that got punched in the nose by grandpa,,,,


The legal ownership and liens on a piece of real property are usually a fairly cut and dry issue to figure out.

In order for someone to place a lien on your daughters property, he would have had to have some sort of interest in the property or performed some sort of improvement or construction on the property or lent money to someone who had the legal right to use the property to secure the loan.
Or, if he was awarded a judgment in a civil case and was able to acquire the property or force it's sale for the full or partial payment of any civil award.

Now just because your daughter inherited the property does not mean that any pre-existing liens or outstanding loans against the property would disappear. She would either have to pay off such items herself to gain clear title or sell the property to pay the same and she would end up with whatever was left.

Did the property possibly belong to someone who the court appointed a conservator to handle their affairs because they were unable to care for themselves or incapacitated in some way? I could see some nasty and questionable practices happening in a situation like that.

 

[SharonNorman1]

Man Steals Land and is at it Again!!!!

I guess I should not call it inheritance because her father purchased the land for her in 1986. She has always been the owner. She owed this man nothing. That is why I am questioning how can he put a lien on the property. Her grandfather owes him. I was wondering due to the fact that they tried both cases together did that allow him to obtain her property? Her grandfathers name is not and never has been on the deed.

The piece of property that he was awarded was not his and he knew. We had a jury trial, which was against my better judgement but my father, in his 70's wanted it.

If she owes him nothing, how can he put a lien on her property. This is not even the property that was in question in the trial.

What can you advise her to do

Thank you so much for responding. This is really worrying me.

I'm leaning towards the guy that got punched in the nose by grandpa,,,,


The legal ownership and liens on a piece of real property are usually a fairly cut and dry issue to figure out.

In order for someone to place a lien on your daughters property, he would have had to have some sort of interest in the property or performed some sort of improvement or construction on the property or lent money to someone who had the legal right to use the property to secure the loan.
Or, if he was awarded a judgment in a civil case and was able to acquire the property or force it's sale for the full or partial payment of any civil award.

Now just because your daughter inherited the property does not mean that any pre-existing liens or outstanding loans against the property would disappear. She would either have to pay off such items herself to gain clear title or sell the property to pay the same and she would end up with whatever was left.

Did the property possibly belong to someone who the court appointed a conservator to handle their affairs because they were unable to care for themselves or incapacitated in some way? I could see some nasty and questionable practices happening in a situation like that.

 

[justalayman]

if it can be proven that the land was purchased with ill gotten gains from the person who has placed a lein on the property and could convince a court of this, he could place a lein and sue for ownership of the property.

 

[SharonNorman1]

The land was owned by a family that the gentleman bought in a sheriff sale. The piece that is in question was not and never has been a part of this case. He is notorious for obtaining land any way he can. He has the means to do this and he wins. It is property in a very small city in Texas.

She owned the property out right. There was a piece of the property that was in question, which was awarded to him by a jury. I spoke with one of the jurors The acres that he has a lien on now was never a part of the trial. I don't understand how he can put a lien on her property for a debt that my father owes.

Her inheritance? Who owned the land before your daughter?

 

[SharonNorman1]

Thank you for your response.

It can not be proven. This land has been proven that it clearly belongs to my daughter. It has never been a question. We had numerous title searches done and know for sure that it is belongs to her. My biggest fear behind this is that it will kill my father if he found out that he has gone after this other piece. He is an older gentleman and this gentleman taunted him for year, which lead up to the altercation. He is a very schrewed and coniving man. I googled his name and he is all over the internet. His a hard man to beat. I always thought that right would prevail. I tried to instill this in my daughter as well. She is fill confident that this will come out okay. I am trying to have thos same feelings but I want to do whatever I can to help it along the way. I live 300 miles from the property and it is the weekend and my hands are tied. What do I do?

if it can be proven that the land was purchased with ill gotten gains from the person who has placed a lein on the property and could convince a court of this, he could place a lein and sue for ownership of the property.

 

[outonbail]

It would appear by your post, that the grandfather purchased this piece of property with his money and put it in your daughters name. In other words, your daughter never actually paid anything or contributed in any way to become the owner of this property.

It would also appear by your post, that the grandfather owed this shrewed, hard nosed business man/land baron, money for one reason or another. My guess would be some sort of civil settlement. However, grandfather is claiming he doesn't have anything or any way of paying the money he does in fact owe this man.

Can you see where I'm going here? Do you think I should be able to borrow a large sum of money from you, then use it to purchase property that I place in another family members name and then tell you that your just out of luck because I don't have any money or any assets to liquidate in order to pay you back?

This trick is tried all the time, but if it can be shown that it was only grandpa's assets that purchased this property, then it can be ordered that grandpa was only putting the property in granddaughters name to avoid losing it because of any judgments coming his way.
It looks like he was intentionally trying to hide his assets by placing the property in your daughters name.

Now if the sale of the first piece of property wasn't enough to pay off the amount he legally owes to the shrewd businessman, then this guy is going to try to place a lien on whatever other properties he can claim were purchased by grandfather's assets and passed along to a family member as a way of trying to avoid paying what he legally owes. Plus, by going this route, the shrewd businessman is going to claim all sorts of expenses related to the lien process and legal costs to prove the case in court and to jump through all the hoops it required to finally gain the property. If grandpa had just sold the property and gave this guy the money he was due, he would have come out way ahead of what he was credited for by forcing this guy to use the courts to gain the property value. But he believed that because it was in your daughters name that it was untouchable. Unfortunately, this is not the case.

Now a lot of these things will be determined by time frames and their relation to the time he became financially obligated to this other person. Also can depend on what improvements, if any, that he has made to the property and what benefit he may be receiving from it.

But if this other shrewd businessman is owed money by grandpa, why isn't he entitled to recover it from what grandpa has purchased with the money he should have paid his debt with? Why is your daughter more deserving of this money? Because grandpa wants her to have it rather than the person he owes it too?

Do you understand how in the courts eyes, this is making things right?

Grandpa really needs to swallow his pride and try to work something out with this businessman, because if he owes him money, fighting the guy is only costing him more and more in his own legal fees, while interest is building on the balance he owes the entire time and this guys cost to collect his legally owed debt is constantly going up. Grandpa is going to end up paying out three times the original judgment because he's trying to get away not paying anything. He should realize this by now.....

 

[justalayman]

=SharonNorman1;1907425]Thank you for your response.

It can not be proven. This land has been proven that it clearly belongs to my daughter. It has never been a question. We had numerous title searches done and know for sure that it is belongs to her.

You missed the point entirely. It has nothing to do with who owns or even who owend the property. It gets to where did the money come from that the property was bought with.


Two entirely different situations.

OOB, if she does not understand it with your explanation, it is a lost cause. She did not adress my actual point and concern so I have no idea as to an answer to help her.

 

[SharonNorman1]

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

That is what I needed to hear. Grandpa has nothing to do with th ownership of the land . I agree with you, if he owes him it is between them. Grandpa has no relationship to her father, who is the original purchaser of the land. He died in 2002 and we went to court in 2004. Due to the fact that she was a minor and we divorced, he put my name on the deed until she was 18 in 1991.She turned 18 in 2002 and was of legal age and the only owner of the property. I truly believe something is crooked in the fact that he could put a lien on her property. She did become behind on her taxes and he paid them this year on March 18th. However, he never paid taxes on the piece of property that he was given in the suit. I had begun to wonder what was going on with the property and made a call and that is how I found out all of this was going on.

If he won the civil case, which was between him and my daughter. He got the land. Why would she owe him something now. That is what concerns me. i do not want this man to get this land. I would rather sale it for a penny than to let him have it. I don't know if you have children or not but when someone messes with your child, that is to the core of everything you have been born for. I am sure that is what my daddy thought. However, I would rather fight him in court than to assault anyone.

I have not told you this but, my dad was a 70 year old black man that grew up in a time that literally had toblittle himself in a sense to get what he had. He is an outstanding man that raised us with "your word is your bond." We lived that life and he is very respected. For some reason, when he got older he knew he worked for everything he had and nobody should take it from him.

I understand his anger. However I do not support the violence. The worst thing that could happen in this situration is for that man to gain this land. My daughters father died supporting this case and I believed that we would win. I sit here today and believe that this may be our time. I just don't think God would allow someone to keep preying on the weak and never have to be brought to justice. Not saying that I am weak but he has a lot more money than I do

Thank you for listneing

It would appear by your post, that the grandfather purchased this piece of property with his money and put it in your daughters name. In other words, your daughter never actually paid anything or contributed in any way to become the owner of this property.

It would also appear by your post, that the grandfather owed this shrewed, hard nosed business man/land baron, money for one reason or another. My guess would be some sort of civil settlement. However, grandfather is claiming he doesn't have anything or any way of paying the money he does in fact owe this man.

Can you see where I'm going here? Do you think I should be able to borrow a large sum of money from you, then use it to purchase property that I place in another family members name and then tell you that your just out of luck because I don't have any money or any assets to liquidate in order to pay you back?

This trick is tried all the time, but if it can be shown that it was only grandpa's assets that purchased this property, then it can be ordered that grandpa was only putting the property in granddaughters name to avoid losing it because of any judgments coming his way.
It looks like he was intentionally trying to hide his assets by placing the property in your daughters name.

Now if the sale of the first piece of property wasn't enough to pay off the amount he legally owes to the shrewd businessman, then this guy is going to try to place a lien on whatever other properties he can claim were purchased by grandfather's assets and passed along to a family member as a way of trying to avoid paying what he legally owes. Plus, by going this route, the shrewd businessman is going to claim all sorts of expenses related to the lien process and legal costs to prove the case in court and to jump through all the hoops it required to finally gain the property. If grandpa had just sold the property and gave this guy the money he was due, he would have come out way ahead of what he was credited for by forcing this guy to use the courts to gain the property value. But he believed that because it was in your daughters name that it was untouchable. Unfortunately, this is not the case.

Now a lot of these things will be determined by time frames and their relation to the time he became financially obligated to this other person. Also can depend on what improvements, if any, that he has made to the property and what benefit he may be receiving from it.

But if this other shrewd businessman is owed money by grandpa, why isn't he entitled to recover it from what grandpa has purchased with the money he should have paid his debt with? Why is your daughter more deserving of this money? Because grandpa wants her to have it rather than the person he owes it too?

Do you understand how in the courts eyes, this is making things right?

Grandpa really needs to swallow his pride and try to work something out with this businessman, because if he owes him money, fighting the guy is only costing him more and more in his own legal fees, while interest is building on the balance he owes the entire time and this guys cost to collect his legally owed debt is constantly going up. Grandpa is going to end up paying out three times the original judgment because he's trying to get away not paying anything. He should realize this by now.....

 

[SharonNorman1]

Grandpa did not loan nor give the money to her father for the purchase of the land. My daughter does not own anyone. This is not a case of moving assets around to keep this gentleman from collecting. I would not involve my child which is an adult. As a parent, I am going to teach her to do the right thing. This is herland out right. Paid for in full in 1986 by her father. Never used as collateral for anything. By some of the comments, I don't know if I'm understanding clearly. If I am not please advise. I am not totally ignorant to debts. I do know if I don't owe a person anything they should not be able to put a lien on anything of mine. That is why I am questioning this. By your answers you think that there has to be more to it. That is exactly what I need to hear because there is not. Everything has been on the up and up since the beginning on our side. If it has you wondering what is grandpa doing or have done, that helps me. I know that he owes him but that is between them. Why would my daughter's land come into play with this case. I don't know how one goes about putting a lien on someones assests. Better still someone that does not owe you.

Thank you for you advice and comments. I welcome more.

 

[outonbail]

This situation is not getting any clearer for me.

But at the outside chance that I've got one or two facts correctly applied to the situation, let's review what they may be.

1. your original concerns involved two separate parcels of real property, which your daughter is the legal and sole owner of.
2. It was her biological father, who originally purchased these parcels. When he made the original purchase is still a mystery, however, for some reason, he decided that he wanted to give these parcels to the daughter he fathered, you delivered and the two of you raised.
3. The timing he chose to physically release his interest in these parcels, was during his divorce to you.
4. His intentions were to give these two parcels to the daughter you were each the parent of, however due to her age, she could not legally be named as the sole owner on the title to this property until she reached the age of 18.
5. Until that point in time where she turned 18, he agreed to place the property in your name, with the understanding or agreement being that, at that time you would then remove your name from the title and only your daughter would be listed on the land deed each parcel, making her the sole legal owner and controlling party for these two parcels.
6. This did in fact transpire in 2002, when she turned 18.
7. For the previous eleven or so years, (since 1991) you were the legal owner.
8. Your ex husband, the original property owner, dies in 2002, the same year your daughter reached 18 and became a land owner.

Is this correct so far?

I hope so, because subsequent to this, I'm in the dark.

But you claim that in the year 2004 is when the all powerful, "land Baron/land shark/litigation wizard and all around bad guy, was in court, battling your father, who is the daughter/land owner's grandfather.
This grandfather had no biological relation to your daughter's father, who originally purchased the property.
In fact, the Grandfather, at no time, had any claim or possession of either parcel. However, for yet another undisclosed reason, grandpa was involved in some sort of litigation or civil court action with the land Baron/shark/bad guy.

If this rendition of events is accurate so far, then were further along than I would have guessed.

However, at some unknown point and for some unknown reason, your daughter was dragged into the court battle between grandpa and bad guy.
Your daughter however, never had any business, personal or social relationship with the bad guy and he was only inviting her into this legal confusion because she was the legal owner of two separate parcels of land he ultimately wanted to own and he in fact, at this time does own one of these two parcels of land, which a jury awarded him in the 2004 case.

If this is what you claim has in fact transpired, then I will agree that it doesn't sound legal, given these facts.

So, what I suggest you do, is to get a hold of the summons or complaint, that was filed with the court, in order to name your daughter as a party to the legal action between grandpa and the bad guy.

This document would list a cause of action, that will explain why your daughter was eligible to be named as a defendant in the matter between grandpa and bad guy.

You need to find out exactly what tied your daughter and one of the parcels of land, in with the case filed by the bad guy.
There has to be some legally binding connection. Did your ex, (the daughters father) also owe the bad guy money like grandpa did?

Could it be possible that due to all the shuffling of ownership from father to ex wife to daughter that was going on around the same time that bad guy's civil case was being heard, made it appear that a game of hot potato with the land parcel was actually a game of hide the weenie? (Weenie being the money of course)

Let me know if you have any idea of what tied all the parties and land together OK....

 

[outonbail]

One other question,,,
Did your daughter and grandpa share the same legal council in this matter. In other words, was the same attorney who was representing grandpa also representing daughter in the defense of bad guy's action?

If so, this was probably not a very wise strategy to approach the situation with. Your daughter should have had her own attorney and one who was not a partner within, or employed by the same firm that grandpa's attorney was a part of.

 

[justalayman]

OOB, you must be the most virtuous person I have ever met.

I'm not going to disturb where OOB is going as I believe it would only confuse what he has started, and quite well defined I would say, but there is a question that may help as well.


where did your husband get the money to buy the land?

did your husband owe your father any money when he passed away?

 

[outonbail]

OOB, you must be the most virtuous person I have ever met.

I'm not going to disturb where OOB is going as I believe it would only confuse what he has started, and quite well defined I would say, but there is a question that may help as well.


where did your husband get the money to buy the land?

did your husband owe your father any money when he passed away?

I was going to ask a few of the possible connection questions myself, but I figure the best way to arrive at the how and why, would be to have her review the complaint that was filed by the bad guy. Sometimes these are available on line for civil cases, (they are here in Riverside) and the court documents relating to the daughters inclusion or being identified as one of the hundred Doe's, would just cut to the chase and finally shed that missing beam of light for everyone's edification.
Since she probably hasn't reviewed these documents, I figure that would be the next logical step.