MIP from DNR officer, confusing situation.

[michigan1890]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Michigan

Everything started out when the DNR officer came to our campsite around 11:55 p.m. and the first thing she did was ask everyone for our I.D's. There were two 19 year olds, one 20 year old, and one 21 year old and none of us were being loud or bothering anyone, just minding our own business. The officer clearly saw the 20 and 21 year old drinking and asked where the beer was. Her two "assistants" that worked at the campground poured all the beer and liquor out of our cooler. We were never read our rights and she immediately gave breathalysers. She told us we would blow 4 times, which you only need one to see if we were drinking or not. The 20 year old went first and we all saw the numbers increase with each breath to reach a 0.06, same with the 19 year old but blew a 0.04. (Did we really need to blow more then once?) Then I went and blew a 0.000 the first time, and the officer made me blow 3 more times and then asked me if I drank anything, I told her "I took an ice cube out of her drink." She then made me blow 3-4 more times to a total of 7-8 times blowing to get a 0.001. She then went to her truck and issued us all tickets besides the 21 year old. She told the 21 year old that she would talk to her advisor and tell him the next day what would happen. I'm guessing this is because she didn't know what to do because it was her first or second week at the campground according to the other DNR officers. (She never issued him the ticket) She wrote that I blew a 0.03 on my ticket which was not what she showed me or what everyone else saw. I let it go and figured I couldn't get out of it anyways. The next day my boyfriend decided to ask the DNR officer why she wrote 0.03 on my ticket and not what I really blew, and she told me she "forgot" what I blew and didn't write it down so she clicked the "last" button on the machine and it showed up 0.03 but no one blew a 0.03? She changed my ticket to 0.001 and admitted she was wrong to me. She went to the courthouse and just dropped my case (because she would have looked stupid changing it from 0.03 to 0.001). Is there any way that the judge will drop their tickets because the officer clearly seemed like she did not know how to work the machine or something? Should the two others plead guilty or not guilty?? This happened in Washtenaw County at a state park.

 

[FlyingRon]

Unless you are in custody and being questioned, they do not have to read you your rights. Even then all it does is invalidate the questioning.

If you're under 21, blowing anything other than zero indicates you were drinking illegally. Further, you don't need to blow anything or have drunk to be guilty of possession.

However, with a bunch of zeros and even a .001, I'd plead not guilty. .001 is way in the error range of a PBT. Usually they won't consider anything below .02 (some people who haven't drunk at all can give low scores on these tests).
But your ticket was obviously dropped.

The others are going to have a harder time, especially the one seen holding a drink. I'd shut up about taking ice from someone else's drink, that's a sufficient admission of guilt.

 

[Dillon]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Michigan

Everything started out when the DNR officer came to our campsite around 11:55 p.m. and the first thing she did was ask everyone for our I.D's. There were two 19 year olds, one 20 year old, and one 21 year old and none of us were being loud or bothering anyone, just minding our own business. The officer clearly saw the 20 and 21 year old drinking and asked where the beer was. Her two "assistants" that worked at the campground poured all the beer and liquor out of our cooler. We were never read our rights and she immediately gave breathalysers. She told us we would blow 4 times, which you only need one to see if we were drinking or not. The 20 year old went first and we all saw the numbers increase with each breath to reach a 0.06, same with the 19 year old but blew a 0.04. (Did we really need to blow more then once?) Then I went and blew a 0.000 the first time, and the officer made me blow 3 more times and then asked me if I drank anything, I told her "I took an ice cube out of her drink." She then made me blow 3-4 more times to a total of 7-8 times blowing to get a 0.001. She then went to her truck and issued us all tickets besides the 21 year old. She told the 21 year old that she would talk to her advisor and tell him the next day what would happen. I'm guessing this is because she didn't know what to do because it was her first or second week at the campground according to the other DNR officers. (She never issued him the ticket) She wrote that I blew a 0.03 on my ticket which was not what she showed me or what everyone else saw. I let it go and figured I couldn't get out of it anyways. The next day my boyfriend decided to ask the DNR officer why she wrote 0.03 on my ticket and not what I really blew, and she told me she "forgot" what I blew and didn't write it down so she clicked the "last" button on the machine and it showed up 0.03 but no one blew a 0.03? She changed my ticket to 0.001 and admitted she was wrong to me. She went to the courthouse and just dropped my case (because she would have looked stupid changing it from 0.03 to 0.001). Is there any way that the judge will drop their tickets because the officer clearly seemed like she did not know how to work the machine or something? Should the two others plead guilty or not guilty?? This happened in Washtenaw County at a state park.

i always ask any officer when stopped, if i am free to leave and if this is a criminal investigation. if No and Yes, he is required to read your rights?
i ask the questions first.

the citation/summons is defective for no court of record seal and no clerk or judges signature for starters. sounds like personal and subject matter jurisdictional problems for the court.

 

[CdwJava]

i always ask any officer when stopped, if i am free to leave and if this is a criminal investigation. if No and Yes, he is required to read your rights?
i ask the questions first.

the citation/summons is defective for no court of record seal and no clerk or judges signature for starters. sounds like personal and subject matter jurisdictional problem for the court.

Dillon, clearly you do not understand the Miranda ruling. A detention does not generally equate to the custody required to invoke Miranda, though it sometimes can. Merely being detained (not free to go) and subject to a criminal investigation does not necessarily mean Miranda rights must be read.

And you are once again waaaaay off base with this summons/citation nonsense.

 

[Dillon]

Dillon, clearly you do not understand the Miranda ruling. A detention does not generally equate to the custody required to invoke Miranda, though it sometimes can. Merely being detained (not free to go) and subject to a criminal investigation does not necessarily mean Miranda rights must be read.

And you are once again waaaaay off base with this summons/citation nonsense.

clearly you dont understand if one is not free to leave they are technically in custody. (aka under arrest)

clearly i dont consent to being detained.

clearly i dont need miranda to assert my Rights, Do I?

clearly i dont consent to a breathalyzer test.

clearly i dont ACTUALLY POSSESS STATE ID, Do I?

 

[CdwJava]

clearly you dont understand if one is not free to leave they are technically in custody.

Not true at all. Once again, read up on the law concerning "detentions."

Here are two to start with: (Hodari D. (1991) 499 U.S. 621, 627-628; Bostick (1991) 501 U.S. 429, 434); Brower (1989) 489 U.S. 593, 597

clearly i dont consent to being detained.

Good for you. You do not have to consent to being detained.

clearly i dont need miranda to assert my Rights, Do I?

Nope. You can always refuse to talk to the police. But all because you do not have to talk to them does not mean that you are in a position to compel them to read Miranda.

Take a gander at Stansbury (1994) 511 U.S. 318, 322 as well as Berkemer (1984) 468 U.S. 420.

Not only are these laws set in a myriad of federal court rulings, but further refined in assorted state cases. The states can hold slightly more restrictive interpretations on government actions, so some states may restrict law enforcement to a greater extent than the feds do. But, in general, Miranda is not required at a detention absent some other circumstances such that the detention is the equivalent of a custodial arrest.

 

[Dillon]

And you are once again waaaaay off base with this summons/citation nonsense.

ok, then how many elements are required for a valid judicial summons/citation to a court of record?

ok, is a citation/complaint a valid cause of action?

how many elements in a valid cause of action?

What are they?

 

[Dillon]

Good for you. You do not have to consent to being detained.


Nope. You can always refuse to talk to the police. But all because you do not have to talk to them does not mean that you are in a position to compel them to read Miranda.

how long before a non consential detention becomes a custodial arrest?

5 minutes, 15 or 20, I can wait.

answer these question, if you can?

clearly i dont have to consent to a breathalyzer test? yes or no

clearly i dont ACTUALLY POSSESS STATE ID, Do I? yes or no

also in a traffic CASE who is the plaintiff the STATE or the peace officer? pick one

 

[CdwJava]

ok, then how many elements are required for a valid judicial summons to a court of record?

Elements of what?

What state are you talking about?

ok, is a citation a valid cause of action?

In my state, for a traffic offense, a citation can serve as a valid complaint, yes.

how many elements in a valid cause of action?

What are they?

Again, what state and what elements are you talking about?

If you are truly interested, read the statutes of the state you are inquiring about and find out what is required for a citation, a complaint, or a cause o action. I cannot speak for all states, and neither can you.

 

[CdwJava]

how long before a non consential detention becomes a custodial arrest?

5 minutes, 15 or 20, I can wait.

answer these question, if you can?

It cannot be answered like that as the issues of a detention can be fact specific. Some states might have times established in case law for certain types of encounters, but a detention can exist for quite some time - even hours - under the right circumstances. However, under a prolonged detention, i is much more likely that a court might rule that Miranda woudl apply ... but, then, we are not talking about prolonged detentions, are we?

clearly i dont have to consent to a breathalyzer test? yes or no

Nope. But, there could be legal consequences for refusing to consent. And, of course, if the breath test is the required test and your state and jurisdiction allows it, blood could be compelled.

clearly i dont ACTUALLY POSSESS STATE ID, Do I? yes or no

I don't know, do you?

The state issues yo some form of ID if you apply for a license or ID card, or a passport. But whether you possess any state-issued ID I cannot say.

also in a traffic CASE who is the plaintiff the STATE or the peace officer? pick one

I cannot speak for every state, but in my state (and probably all others) it is the STATE vs. John Q. Public in a traffic case.

Is there a point to all this? Are we about to get to the flag with the fringe and the Admiralty Court question?

 

[Dillon]

It cannot be answered like that as the issues of a detention can be fact specific. Some states might have times established in case law for certain types of encounters, but a detention can exist for quite some time - even hours - under the right circumstances. However, under a prolonged detention, i is much more likely that a court might rule that Miranda woudl apply ...


sounds good to me

Nope. But, there could be legal consequences for refusing to consent. And, of course, if the breath test is the required test and your state and jurisdiction allows it, blood could be compelled.

Not, if one cancels the license agreement, either party can cancel a license at any time


I don't know, do you? yes the STATE ID CARD OR LICENSE IS STATE PROPERTY THEIR ACTUAL POSSESSION, otherwise an officer would need a warrant to seize it. makes sense now!

The state issues yo some form of ID if you apply for a license or ID card, or a passport. But whether you possess any state-issued ID I cannot say.


I cannot speak for every state, but in my state (and probably all others) it is the STATE vs. John Q. Public in a traffic case.

does the peace officer or judge represent the STATE?

the DA (the STATE) does not have first hand info he/she did see anything and didnt sign the complaint to make them the plaintiff, you know?

Is there a point to all this? Are we about to get the special Admiralty Court question?

there are only three, which one is it? common law (aka the law), equity civil (contract- did i sign anything?) or civil special maritime- contract - did i sign something?

 

[Dillon]

Elements of what?

What state are you talking about?


In my state, for a traffic offense, a citation can serve as a valid complaint, yes.


Again, what state and what elements are you talking about?

ELEMENTS means required parts to build something

does a judge or clerk need to sign a judicial summons for it to be valid? yes or No

does the judicial summons need or require a court of Records Seal to be vaild?
yes or No

Does a general notice to appear/aka the general traffic summons contain these require elements? if not does one really have to appear unless these defects are corrected and is this a lawful cause or excuse not to appear when arrested for not appearing? yes or no

also is traffic court a court of Record and is traffic court a judicial court or administrative court? Pick one

 

[CdwJava]

there are only three, which one is it? common law (aka the law), equity civil (contract- did i sign anything?) or civil special maritime- contract - did i sign something?

Okaaaay then ...

Not sure what that had to do with all the questions you have posed, but ... okaaaay ...

 

[CdwJava]

ELEMENTS means parts

does a judge or clerk need to sign a judicial summons for it to be valid? yes or No

does the judicial summons need or require a court of Records Seal to be vaild?
yes or No

Laws vary by state. In CA this is the law:

813. (a) When a complaint is filed with a magistrate charging a
felony originally triable in the superior court of the county in
which he or she sits, if, and only if, the magistrate is satisfied
from the complaint that the offense complained of has been committed
and that there is reasonable ground to believe that the defendant has
committed it, the magistrate shall issue a warrant for the arrest of
the defendant, except that, upon the request of the prosecutor, a
summons instead of an arrest warrant shall be issued.
(b) A summons issued pursuant to this section shall be in
substantially the same form as an arrest warrant and shall contain
all of the following:
(1) The name of the defendant.
(2) The date and time the summons was issued.
(3) The city or county where the summons was issued.
(4) The signature of the magistrate, judge, justice, or other
issuing authority who is issuing the summons with the title of his or
her office and the name of the court or other issuing agency.
(5) The offense or offenses with which the defendant is charged.
(6) The time and place at which the defendant is to appear.
(7) Notification that the defendant is to complete the booking
process on or before his or her first court appearance, as well as
instructions for the defendant on completing the booking process.
(8) A provision for certification by the booking agency that the
defendant has completed the booking process which shall be presented
to the court by the defendant as proof of booking.​

Note that officers do not issue a "summons" in my state, an officer issues a citation or "promise to appear." They are substantially different.

Does a general notice to appear/aka the summons contain these require elements?

See above. In my state these are NOT the same thing.

if not does one really have to appear unless these defects are corrected and is this a lawful cause or excuse not to appear when arrested for not appearing? yes or no

If the notice is defective, the defendant can file a demurrer, but if one does not appear, one will potentially get a warrant for one's arrest. They might then have to go back and challenge the defective instrument ... which is something they should have done initially.

also is traffic court a court of Record and is traffic court a judicial court or administrative court? which court is traffic court? a judicial or administrave court? Pick one

In CA they are the Superior Courts. The Superior courts have jurisdiction over all criminal and civil cases. The traffic court is a particular court within the county's Superior Court system within which traffic related matters are assigned to be heard. Whether this fits into either of your definitions, I cannot say, though here in CA they would be judicial courts as the overwhelming majority of traffic offenses are criminal matters.

 

[Dillon]

Okaaaay then ...

Not sure what that had to do with all the questions you have posed, but ... okaaaay ...

do traffic statues fall under

1 common law (aka the law)

2 equity law/statues (civil contracts)

3 special maritime/commerce/insurance statutes (aka special civil contracts)

Pick one for me and tell me why you think so?