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NYC MTA Unsafe Rider Citation

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larryort

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? New York

I was just issued an Unsafe Rider ticket for walking from one car to another n the subway. However, I did it when the train wasn't moving and was actually parked in the terminal. The PO called me outside and told me that I wasn't supposed to do that and asked for my ID. Long story short, they cited me as an unsafe rider on a non moving train.
I checked the MTA website and the only place you can find that it is mentioned is in the Rules of Conduct and this is only if you are looking for it. The subway platform was slippery and could be considered more hazardous than inside the car. So if safety was their motivation (which I doubt) then there was no reason to pull me out. I didn't give them a hard time, I was polite and quiet. But now, I have a $75.00 ticket that I really don't feel I deserved. Is there anyway to fight this?? Help!
 


You Are Guilty

Senior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? New York

I was just issued an Unsafe Rider ticket for walking from one car to another n the subway. However, I did it when the train wasn't moving and was actually parked in the terminal. The PO called me outside and told me that I wasn't supposed to do that and asked for my ID. Long story short, they cited me as an unsafe rider on a non moving train.
I checked the MTA website and the only place you can find that it is mentioned is in the Rules of Conduct and this is only if you are looking for it. The subway platform was slippery and could be considered more hazardous than inside the car. So if safety was their motivation (which I doubt) then there was no reason to pull me out. I didn't give them a hard time, I was polite and quiet. But now, I have a $75.00 ticket that I really don't feel I deserved. Is there anyway to fight this?? Help!
Unless you can prove it wasn't you who walked from car to car, then no. As asinine as it it, the Rules do prohibit walking between cars except in an emergency or ordered to do so by staff or emergency personnel. It's only enforced sporadically, and most people are not aware of the Rule. But when the MTA needs every penny it can get its hands on...

Good luck. And if you do contest it, please come back and let us know how you made out at TAB. It might help someone in the future.
 

FlyingRon

Senior Member
and most people are not aware of the Rule. But when the MTA needs every penny it can get its hands on...
I guess those "Riding or moving between cars is prohibited..." signs complete with the little international NO and the man between the cars is too difficult to understand.
 

You Are Guilty

Senior Member
Not every car has them. And even on the ones that do, are you honestly expecting riders to read them? And what about the Latvian rider who doesn't understand English? I smell a discrimination lawsuit, lol
 

larryort

Junior Member
I guess those "Riding or moving between cars is prohibited..." signs complete with the little international NO and the man between the cars is too difficult to understand.
Judging by that smart-alec remark, you're probably from a small town where they ticket jaywalkers. Here in NY, millions of people walk between the cars when the train is moving and when it isn't. Just like jaywalking it is hardly enforceable unless you wanna be a jerk and ticket someone to top off a quota.
In any event, for those who really want to be helpful, safteywise the subway platform was slippery and wet due the inclement weather and there's no where to grab in case you fall. Inside a subway car, there is plenty to use if you want to avoid a fall. So, in this case where a parked subway car is involved, it was safer. Also, technically are you really a "rider" in a parked subway??
 
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FlyingRon

Senior Member
Judging by that smart-alec remark, you're probably from a small town where they ticket jaywalkers. Here in NY, millions of people walk between the cars when the train is moving and when it isn't. Just like jaywalking it is hardly enforceable unless you wanna be a jerk and ticket someone to top off a quota.
Actually I'm from quite a large time and spent years in New Jersey where using the NYC subways were quite common place. While lots of people pass through the cars, anybody who has ridden them with a clue for any period of times knows that you're not supposed to pass between the cars. Just because "everybody does it" doesn't make it allowed.
The only thing that is UNIQUE about NYC versus other cities, is most other cities lock the end doors on the cars.

While the signs may not be universal, they've been around in various forms over the past thirty years that most people know not to do it.
But it's also moot. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

NY ticket people for jaywalking, double parking, blocking the box, and various other things you'd love to get away with at times as well. It's not the lawless place you'd be inclined to believe.
 

larryort

Junior Member
Actually I'm from quite a large time and spent years in New Jersey where using the NYC subways were quite common place. While lots of people pass through the cars, anybody who has ridden them with a clue for any period of times knows that you're not supposed to pass between the cars. Just because "everybody does it" doesn't make it allowed.
The only thing that is UNIQUE about NYC versus other cities, is most other cities lock the end doors on the cars.

While the signs may not be universal, they've been around in various forms over the past thirty years that most people know not to do it.
But it's also moot. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

NY ticket people for jaywalking, double parking, blocking the box, and various other things you'd love to get away with at times as well. It's not the lawless place you'd be inclined to believe.
Life must really suck for you to have to deal with all of us lawless people not adhering to every letter of the law as apparently you do. I was just a poor schmuck on his way to make an honest dollar at work and got pulled over for a minor, yes minor, infraction and got a stiff penalty for it. I'm not stupid enough to subscribe to the thought that just because everyone does it it's fine. I was just stating a fact of life here. I do appreciate the laws and strive to follow them, but just because they are on the books doesn't mean you can't use a little common sense in enforcing them. If you want to look solely at the law and not the circumstances surrounding the infraction, that's on you and what goes around comes around. But the self-righteous attitude wasn't necessary and not welcome.
 

larryort

Junior Member
Unless you can prove it wasn't you who walked from car to car, then no. As asinine as it it, the Rules do prohibit walking between cars except in an emergency or ordered to do so by staff or emergency personnel. It's only enforced sporadically, and most people are not aware of the Rule. But when the MTA needs every penny it can get its hands on...

Good luck. And if you do contest it, please come back and let us know how you made out at TAB. It might help someone in the future.
By the way, I'm sorry for not acknowledging you. Thanks for your advice.
 

You Are Guilty

Senior Member
In any event, for those who really want to be helpful, safteywise the subway platform was slippery and wet due the inclement weather and there's no where to grab in case you fall. Inside a subway car, there is plenty to use if you want to avoid a fall. So, in this case where a parked subway car is involved, it was safer.
I don't disagree, but you are arguing the validity of the rule, not its application to your situation here. The TAB is not the venue for that kind of argument - you'd need to bring suit against the MTA in Supreme Court. Even assuming you could navigate the legal minefield of doing such, the filing fees alone are over $300. So you can see why most people just pay the $75.

It really is no different than getting a jaywalking ticket here. It happens, and as ridiculous as it is, it is still illegal. You may have some luck if you get a sympathetic judge who might reduce the fine (although I don't know if that's even an option anymore - it might be an "all or nothing" deal like traffic tickets).

Also, technically are you really a "rider" in a parked subway??
Define "technically" ;) (Legally though, yes you are. Are you no longer a rider on a train when it pulls into a station and stops to let passengers in?)
 

larryort

Junior Member
I don't disagree, but you are arguing the validity of the rule, not its application to your situation here. The TAB is not the venue for that kind of argument - you'd need to bring suit against the MTA in Supreme Court. Even assuming you could navigate the legal minefield of doing such, the filing fees alone are over $300. So you can see why most people just pay the $75.

It really is no different than getting a jaywalking ticket here. It happens, and as ridiculous as it is, it is still illegal. You may have some luck if you get a sympathetic judge who might reduce the fine (although I don't know if that's even an option anymore - it might be an "all or nothing" deal like traffic tickets).


Define "technically" ;) (Legally though, yes you are. Are you no longer a rider on a train when it pulls into a station and stops to let passengers in?)
As to your first point, I guess I'll just have to throw myself on the courts mercy and ask for a reduced fine.
As to your second point (Devil's Advocate) parked is different from stopped. When a train is parked there is a period of time when the conductor is not on the train.
 

FlyingRon

Senior Member
I guess you'll just have to bear the massive chip on your shoulder. My so-called "smart alec" remark wasn't directed at you to begin with. It was in response to YAG's comment that NY subway patrons were largely ignorant of the law, which is what I took issue with.

Weasel your justification as you want, the ticket is valid and as YAG has told you, you won't win this with the arguments that:

1. You felt the law was stupid.
2. You didn't know the law.
3. You felt you had a better reason.
4. Cops only write tickets to make revenue.
5. The MTA and the transit cops are out to get you
6. etc...

I didn't direct anything at you until you sniped at me. I apologize, my mother taught me better than that. Rudeness does not justify rudeness.
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
Nobody seems to have problems with the penalties for breaking the law...until THEY are held responsible to pay it! :rolleyes::rolleyes:
 

larryort

Junior Member
I guess you'll just have to bear the massive chip on your shoulder. My so-called "smart alec" remark wasn't directed at you to begin with. It was in response to YAG's comment that NY subway patrons were largely ignorant of the law, which is what I took issue with.

Weasel your justification as you want, the ticket is valid and as YAG has told you, you won't win this with the arguments that:

1. You felt the law was stupid.
2. You didn't know the law.
3. You felt you had a better reason.
4. Cops only write tickets to make revenue.
5. The MTA and the transit cops are out to get you
6. etc...

I didn't direct anything at you until you sniped at me. I apologize, my mother taught me better than that. Rudeness does not justify rudeness.
If the weaseling reduces my penalty, so be it. I am guilty of reasons 1-4. 5 is debatable. I started this thread because I wanted helpful advice in sorting all this out. I wasn't expecting judgment for my actions.
As for why I sniped at you, in your opening remarks, the part you quoted addressed a group of people that ultimately included me too. Hence, so did your comment.
My reasons to vent are valid and I'm sure shared by many. As I stated before, I do my best to follow the law, but I do see this as punishment not befitting the crime and wanted to know if I had any options. If there are none, I'm not afraid to own up and pay.
My "chip" comes from having to see those with privilege have one set of law and those without, another. And I bear it just fine thank you.
 

You Are Guilty

Senior Member
Most regular subway riders have grown a thick skin. Comes in handy both here, online, and on the subway, where the thick skin helps repel all the disgusting germs and exotic diseases the other riders all seem to have.

Anyway, if you get bored, click the blue "search" link up top, then type "transit adjudication bureau" and read some of the other posts. On top of it being good entertainment, you may find some wacky defense that worked for someone else in the past.


PS. Were you ticketed on "No Pants Day"? Wouldn't surprise me if that's what attracted the officer's attention.
 

larryort

Junior Member
Most regular subway riders have grown a thick skin. Comes in handy both here, online, and on the subway, where the thick skin helps repel all the disgusting germs and exotic diseases the other riders all seem to have.

Anyway, if you get bored, click the blue "search" link up top, then type "transit adjudication bureau" and read some of the other posts. On top of it being good entertainment, you may find some wacky defense that worked for someone else in the past.


PS. Were you ticketed on "No Pants Day"? Wouldn't surprise me if that's what attracted the officer's attention.
LOL! Nooo. I would have gotten a beat down if that was the case. Talk about needing thick skin.
Thanks for the recommendation. I'll check the link tomorrow.
 

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