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Question about a shoplifting incident

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marie-k

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? California

Hello,

I have a question regarding issues with a shoplifting incident on behalf of an elderly neighbor (no, really, it isn't me--and sorry this is a bit longwinded).

A couple weeks ago she visited a grocery store, paid for her groceries, and exited before being stopped outside by a pair of men who were working as security--an external firm, not store employees--after she was seen taking about a half-dozen butterscotch candies that she didn't pay for.

They took her into a room in the back of the store, and got her license information and had her sign a paper. She told me the room they were in was dimly lit and she told them she didn't have her glasses and couldn't read the paper they wanted her to sign. They told her it was just an admission that she did leave the store without paying for the items noted (which she gave back to them). But they also said she wouldn't be able to leave if she didn't sign it, so she just went ahead and signed it because, she said, she was nervous and embarrassed and just wanted to go home. They provided her with no copy of that paper, nor did they offer to even read it to her. Of course, I told her it was a mistake to have signed something she didn't read first, but what's done is done. Bear in mind this woman is just shy of 80 and is, in my experience, pretty easily rattled when something goes wrong, so her not asking for a copy or refusing to sign the paper isn't surprising.

Yesterday, she received a Civil Demand Letter from the store's hired security firm wanting, unsurprisingly, the absolute maximum amount ($500) they could demand, to apparently, avoid any further issues on the subject. As an aside, to me, this is essentially extortion hoping the individual is more worried about having a shoplifting charge on their record than the exorbitant amount demanded. She told me they asked her if she worked, and I can very easily guess why: much easier to extort an employed person than a retiree.

This woman is living on social security and there is no way in hell she can afford to pay this ridiculous demand. While what she did was...ill advised...what these people are trying to pull is far more noisome since it's calculated and insidious. So I told her I'd try and find some information on what sort of option she might have available to deal with this in a more reasonable manner.

What I'd like to know, then, is would it be smart to contact the grocery store's legal department, manager, or some other representative and attempt to negotiate a direct restitution (say, $50), to close the issue? Obviously, there'd be a signed receipt as to the purpose of the payment and an agreement on the part of the store not to press charges for this incident. I *really* don't want her to have to pay a dime to the parasites that sent her the CDL, if it's avoidable. I understand that they are hired on the store's behalf, but I believe there must be a way around them under these circumstances.

In addition, I'd like to know something should this silliness end up in court if she refuses to pay the demand. Presumably, she would be required to pay a fine and certain fees (she'd have to have a public defender, as well), but would the firm that sent the CDL get awarded anything? I understand the store would be entitled to restitution. And on that matter, the value of the items she took amounted to less than $1. Would restitution be that amount (or whatever's agreed on, I suppose) or does it include some sort of punitive value that the court could award the store?

Essentially, she'd like to reason with the party she offended, so to speak, apologize, pay a reasonable amount to them as part of that apology, and just close the matter directly. How to proceed?

Also, having read this, what do you think the odds would be--in general, of course--that charges would actually be pressed if she refuses to pay the extor...demanded amount, and none of the parties on that side are interested in negotiating that amount to something reasonable, and affordable? I don't see the benefit in the store pressing charges, and going through the rigamarole, if all they can expect is a dollar or two in restitution. Either way, I'd much rather her have to pay the court a fine, than the greedy leeches that sent the CDL (enough so that I offered to reimburse her for anything over $100 she may end up having to pay should she decide to refuse the demand).

Thanks.

domi
 


Ohiogal

Queen Bee
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? California

Hello,

I have a question regarding issues with a shoplifting incident on behalf of an elderly neighbor (no, really, it isn't me--and sorry this is a bit longwinded).

A couple weeks ago she visited a grocery store, paid for her groceries, and exited before being stopped outside by a pair of men who were working as security--an external firm, not store employees--after she was seen taking about a half-dozen butterscotch candies that she didn't pay for.
So she shoplifted.
They took her into a room in the back of the store, and got her license information and had her sign a paper. She told me the room they were in was dimly lit and she told them she didn't have her glasses and couldn't read the paper they wanted her to sign. They told her it was just an admission that she did leave the store without paying for the items noted (which she gave back to them). But they also said she wouldn't be able to leave if she didn't sign it, so she just went ahead and signed it because, she said, she was nervous and embarrassed and just wanted to go home. They provided her with no copy of that paper, nor did they offer to even read it to her. Of course, I told her it was a mistake to have signed something she didn't read first, but what's done is done. Bear in mind this woman is just shy of 80 and is, in my experience, pretty easily rattled when something goes wrong, so her not asking for a copy or refusing to sign the paper isn't surprising.
She is a just shy of 80 thief.

Yesterday, she received a Civil Demand Letter from the store's hired security firm wanting, unsurprisingly, the absolute maximum amount ($500) they could demand, to apparently, avoid any further issues on the subject. As an aside, to me, this is essentially extortion hoping the individual is more worried about having a shoplifting charge on their record than the exorbitant amount demanded. She told me they asked her if she worked, and I can very easily guess why: much easier to extort an employed person than a retiree.
This is not extortion. This is a civil demand that is allowed by law. It covers training and other costs associated with thieves like your neighbor.

This woman is living on social security and there is no way in hell she can afford to pay this ridiculous demand. While what she did was...ill advised...what these people are trying to pull is far more noisome since it's calculated and insidious. So I told her I'd try and find some information on what sort of option she might have available to deal with this in a more reasonable manner.
What she did was STEALING. She may also be criminally charged for her crime.
What I'd like to know, then, is would it be smart to contact the grocery store's legal department, manager, or some other representative and attempt to negotiate a direct restitution (say, $50), to close the issue? Obviously, there'd be a signed receipt as to the purpose of the payment and an agreement on the part of the store not to press charges for this incident. I *really* don't want her to have to pay a dime to the parasites that sent her the CDL, if it's avoidable. I understand that they are hired on the store's behalf, but I believe there must be a way around them under these circumstances.
Really? She is the thief and criminal and yet they are parasites?

In addition, I'd like to know something should this silliness end up in court if she refuses to pay the demand. Presumably, she would be required to pay a fine and certain fees (she'd have to have a public defender, as well), but would the firm that sent the CDL get awarded anything? I understand the store would be entitled to restitution. And on that matter, the value of the items she took amounted to less than $1. Would restitution be that amount (or whatever's agreed on, I suppose) or does it include some sort of punitive value that the court could award the store?
They are entitled to the civil demand that results from shoplifting. There are consequences to stealing.


Essentially, she'd like to reason with the party she offended, so to speak, apologize, pay a reasonable amount to them as part of that apology, and just close the matter directly. How to proceed?
She should pay the civil demand.
Also, having read this, what do you think the odds would be--in general, of course--that charges would actually be pressed if she refuses to pay the extor...demanded amount, and none of the parties on that side are interested in negotiating that amount to something reasonable, and affordable? I don't see the benefit in the store pressing charges, and going through the rigamarole, if all they can expect is a dollar or two in restitution. Either way, I'd much rather her have to pay the court a fine, than the greedy leeches that sent the CDL (enough so that I offered to reimburse her for anything over $100 she may end up having to pay should she decide to refuse the demand).
It is not extortion. It is a CIVIL penalty for her being a dirty thief.
 

Indiana Filer

Senior Member
I wish the like button worked on this pad, because Ohiogal is completely correct.

It sounds to me like this old woman thought her age would allow her to steal without consequence. I wonder how many other times she just didn't get caught.

If she were my neighbor, I'd never leave her alone around any of my possessions.
 

dave33

Senior Member
marie-k,
If it was my neighbor I would suggest not to pay the maximum amount. The store can forward the information they have to the police, but that still does not mean they will press charges. A civil demand is intended to make the complainant whole. The max amount certainly exceeds that. If a person filed a civil complaint against another person alleging a loss of $1 and won the court would not award that person $500. Although, attorney fees may also be an issue, I would still not pay the $500.
 

Ohiogal

Queen Bee
marie-k,
If it was my neighbor I would suggest not to pay the maximum amount. The store can forward the information they have to the police, but that still does not mean they will press charges. A civil demand is intended to make the complainant whole. The max amount certainly exceeds that. If a person filed a civil complaint against another person alleging a loss of $1 and won the court would not award that person $500. Although, attorney fees may also be an issue, I would still not pay the $500.
Civil demands are STATUTORY. The individual is responsible for anywhere from $50 to $500. Section 490.5 of the Penal Code.
 
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tranquility

Senior Member
Stealing is stealing. While I accept and have always dreamed of an age where I don't need to take responsibility for my actions, it is a crapshoot and depends upon the jury. If the amount is not paid, the store will "press" charges. It's not a matter of the CONFESSION, but a matter of the facts. OP(friend) can write a letter saying her dire financial position makes it impossible to pay the statutory amount; and, it might work. No harm in trying. But, if they don't accept the "offer" (for lack of a better word) OP(friend) will be prosecuted for shoplifting.

In trial, the nervous nature and inability to see can be introduced regarding the confession. Then, all the OP(friend) has to worry about are the facts. (If successful to convincing a jury a paper she signed stating she was guilty was....wrong in some way.)

What would you think in such a circumstance?
 

dave33

Senior Member
I am not convinced this would even get prosecuted. The store may have already forwarded the info. to the police and no action was taken.
The bottom line is I just wouldn't send them $500.
 

Ohiogal

Queen Bee
I am not convinced this would even get prosecuted. The store may have already forwarded the info. to the police and no action was taken.
The bottom line is I just wouldn't send them $500.
Actually, bottom line is the 80 year old person shouldn't steal. If she weren't a thief, this wouldn't be a problem.
 

sandyclaus

Senior Member
Receiving a civil demand is just one of MANY legal consequences that a shoplifter faces for their actions. If the woman didn't want to pay huge amounts of money for the civil demand, she shouldn't have been stealing in the first place.
 

swalsh411

Senior Member
marie-k,
If it was my neighbor I would suggest not to pay the maximum amount. The store can forward the information they have to the police, but that still does not mean they will press charges. A civil demand is intended to make the complainant whole. The max amount certainly exceeds that. If a person filed a civil complaint against another person alleging a loss of $1 and won the court would not award that person $500. Although, attorney fees may also be an issue, I would still not pay the $500.
Do you have even the vauguest clue how much retailers lose to theft? You're a fool for thinking a person caught trying to steal a $1 item only owes the store $1.
 

dave33

Senior Member
Do you have even the vauguest clue how much retailers lose to theft? You're a fool for thinking a person caught trying to steal a $1 item only owes the store $1.
How much a retailer loses to theft is not my concern. I will show the same amount of concern for a retail store as they show for me.

So then how much is a $1 loss worth?
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
I am not convinced this would even get prosecuted. The store may have already forwarded the info. to the police and no action was taken.
The bottom line is I just wouldn't send them $500.
The problem with that is that the failure to pay the $500 could well go to collections thus tacking on another $500 on top of the initial amount. So, later, it becomes $1,000 and not simply $500.

When I hear people suggest not paying these civil demands, I feel a need to remind them of that wonderful line by Dirty Harry: "Do you feel lucky?"
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
How much a retailer loses to theft is not my concern. I will show the same amount of concern for a retail store as they show for me.

So then how much is a $1 loss worth?
As much as it cost them to set up a system to catch the thief in the first place. What the laws in all states has allowed is for those caught stealing to help defray some small portion of the costs borne by businesses in their attempts to deter and prosecute thefts. Better that the thieves pay these costs than the customers. But, in the end, we consumers pay the costs. Shoplifting, embezzlement, and all form of thefts from businesses cost you and I millions of dollars each year in increased rates for goods, and costs businesses some $35 MILLION each DAY!

The civil demand might not make up for much of the total cost factor, but it might very well have a deterrent effect on the thief where the uncertainty and long delayed criminal process may have no deterrent as it is often so far removed from the incident as to be a distant memory by the time the matter is heard in court.
 

dave33

Senior Member
The problem with that is that the failure to pay the $500 could well go to collections thus tacking on another $500 on top of the initial amount. So, later, it becomes $1,000 and not simply $500.

When I hear people suggest not paying these civil demands, I feel a need to remind them of that wonderful line by Dirty Harry: "Do you feel lucky?"
$500 is the max. They always just send a demand for that, if an 80 year old women on social security that stole $1 isn't eligible for the minimum end than nobody is. This is more like a $50 incident.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
$500 is the max. They always just send a demand for that, if an 80 year old women on social security that stole $1 isn't eligible for the minimum end than nobody is. This is more like a $50 incident.
And, she might be able to negotiate a smaller payment as Tranquility suggested. This is often attempted, though I cannot say how often businesses might agree to such a negotiation.
 
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