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Rules of Evidence

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kiam50

Guest
New York State (Federal and State Rules of Evidence) - I was told regarding the Rules of Evidence that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." According to the Rules of Evidence, when a person is making such a claim does the proof have to match that claim? Can this statement regarding R of E be found anywhere or did someone make it up? :confused:
 


snostar

Senior Member
That is a quote popularized by Carl Sagan often regarding scientific evidence. I haven't seen it in NYS or Federal Rules of Evidence.
 

rmet4nzkx

Senior Member
kiam50 said:
New York State (Federal and State Rules of Evidence) - I was told regarding the Rules of Evidence that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." According to the Rules of Evidence, when a person is making such a claim does the proof have to match that claim? Can this statement regarding R of E be found anywhere or did someone make it up? :confused:
Yes this is true, The supreme court decided a case called "DAUBERT v. MERRELL DOW" which superceeds the "Frye test" at a federal level. Some states have adopted this case and all forensic organizations have adopted this rule. This is RE expert witnesses. Federal Rules of Evidence 702. The theory is called the "Theory of Falsibility" in other words, scientific method including acknowledging alternative opinions and providing the scientific basis of an expert's opinion, thus, "extraordinary". Carl Sagen has no license on this theory, scientific method has been around a long time.

New York did not adopt FRE standard People v. Hughes, 453 N.E.2d 484 (N.Y. 1983) here is a link to a list of states and their respective standards:
APPENDIX E Adopted FRE. Did not adopt FRE. NEW YORK. X. ... Evid. Rule 702 (stating that the Rule is consistent with Frye);
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/enforce/nystagmus/app_e.html

What this means on a practical basis is that at Federal level or in "Daubert" states, an "expert witness" must qualify their competency, it may be by many methods, degree, license, study, research etc. whereas in a "Fry state" A License or certification is all that is required, so a doctor who was licensed in 1960 could testify and give their expert opinion on a patient they have never examined, a disorder they have never been trained to diagnose or treat because they have had a license for 44 years and therefopre, "expert" and I might not be qualified as an expert witness even if I had done the major research on a disorder and teach physicians in medical school if I don't have a medical license. The oppisite would be true under FRE 702 at the federal level or in states adopting "Daubert". To confuse matters more, many states with "Frye Test" may internally expect "Daubert" standard in their licensing and administrative processes.

This is usually related to the field of forensics. If you so a search here and put in the word "Daubert" a post will come up with more links, Here are some links:
Here is a Daubert link & forum for asking questions: http://www.daubertontheweb.com/
and on electronic discovery: http://www.law.com/special/supplement/e_discovery/
http://www.discoveryresources.org/
 
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rmet4nzkx

Senior Member
snostar said:
That is a quote popularized by Carl Sagan often regarding scientific evidence. I haven't seen it in NYS or Federal Rules of Evidence.
Federal Rules of Evidence 702, "DAUBERT v. MERRELL DOW"
 

rmet4nzkx

Senior Member
FYI a link to SC decision:
THE JUDGE AS GATEKEEPER: DAUBERT AND THE ADMISSIBILITY OF SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE. ? "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.". Attributed to Carl Sagan. ... (Click on internal links)
http://faculty.law.lsu.edu/ccorcos/biblio/DaubertMain.htm

Daubert v. Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals (92-102), 509 U.S. 579 (1993).

NOTE: Where it is feasible, a syllabus (headnote) will be released, as is being done in connection with this case, at the time the opinion is issued. The syllabus constitutes no part of the opinion of the Court but has been prepared by the Reporter of Decisions for the convenience of the reader. See United States v. Detroit Lumber Co., 200 U.S. 321, 337.

SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES

Syllabus

DAUBERT et ux., individually and as guardians and litem for DAUBERT, et al. v. MERRELL DOW PHARMACEUTICALS, INC.
certiorari to the united states court of appeals for the ninth circuit

No. 92-102. Argued March 30, 1993 -- Decided June 28, 1993

Petitioners, two minor children and their parents, alleged in their suit against respondent that the children's serious birth defects had been caused by the mothers' prenatal ingestion of Bendectin, a prescription drug marketed by respondent. The District Court granted respondent summary judgment based on a well credentialed expert's affidavit concluding, upon reviewing the extensive published scientific literature on the subject, that maternal use of Bendectin has not been shown to be a risk factor for human birth defects. Although petitioners had responded with the testimony of eight other well credentialed experts, who based their conclusion that Bendectin can cause birth defects on animal studies, chemical structure analyses, and the unpublished "reanalysis" of previously published human statistical studies, the court determined that this evidence did not meet the applicable "general acceptance" standard for the admission of expert testimony. The Court of Appeals agreed and affirmed, citing Frye v. United States, 54 App. D. C. 46, 47, 293 F. 1013, 1014, for the rule that expert opinion based on a scientific technique is inadmissible unless the technique is "generally accepted" as reliable in the relevant scientific community.

Held: The Federal Rules of Evidence, not Frye, provide the standard for admitting expert scientific testimony in a federal trial. Pp. 4-17.

(a) Frye's "general acceptance" test was superseded by the Rules' adoption. The Rules occupy the field, United States v. Abel, 469 U.S. 45, 49, and, although the common law of evidence may serve as an aid to their application, id., at 51-52, respondent's assertion that they somehow assimilated Frye is unconvincing. Nothing in theRules as a whole or in the text and drafting history of Rule 702, which specifically governs expert testimony, gives any indication that "general acceptance" is a necessary precondition to the admissibility of scientific evidence. Moreover, such a rigid standard would be at odds with the Rules' liberal thrust and their general approach of relaxing the traditional barriers to "opinion" testimony. Pp. 4-8.

(b) The Rules--especially Rule 702--place appropriate limits on the admissibility of purportedly scientific evidence by assigning to the trial judge the task of ensuring that an expert's testimony both rests on a reliable foundation and is relevant to the task at hand. The reliability standard is established by Rule 702's requirement that an expert's testimony pertain to "scientific . . . knowledge," since the adjective "scientific" implies a grounding in science's methods and procedures, while the word "knowledge" connotes a body of known facts or of ideas inferred from such facts or accepted as true on good grounds. The Rule's requirement that the testimony "assist the trier of fact to understand the evidence or to determine a fact in issue" goes primarily to relevance by demanding a valid scientific connection to the pertinent inquiry as a precondition to admissibility. Pp. 9-12.

(c) Faced with a proffer of expert scientific testimony under Rule 702, the trial judge, pursuant to Rule 104(a), must make a preliminary assessment of whether the testimony's underlying reasoning or methodology is scientifically valid and properly can be applied to the facts at issue. Many considerations will bear on the inquiry, including whether the theory or technique in question can be (and has been) tested, whether it has been subjected to peer review and publication, its known or potential error rate, and the existence and maintenance of standards controlling its operation, and whether it has attracted widespread acceptance within a relevant scientific community. The inquiry is a flexible one, and its focus must be solely on principles and methodology, not on the conclusions that they generate. Throughout, the judge should also be mindful of other applicable Rules. Pp. 12-15.

(d) Cross-examination, presentation of contrary evidence, and careful instruction on the burden of proof, rather than wholesale exclusion under an uncompromising "general acceptance" standard, is the appropriate means by which evidence based on valid principles may be challenged. That even limited screening by the trial judge, on occasion, will prevent the jury from hearing of authentic scientific breakthroughs is simply a consequence of the fact that the Rules are not designed to seek cosmic understanding but, rather, to resolve legal disputes. Pp. 15-17.

951 F. 2d 1128, vacated and remanded.

Blackmun, J., delivered the opinion for a unanimous Court with respect to Parts I and II-A, and the opinion of the Court with respect to Parts II-B, II-C, III, and IV, in which White, O'Connor, Scalia, Kennedy, Souter, and Thomas, JJ., joined. Rehnquist, C. J., filed an opinion concurring in part and dissenting in part, in which Stevens, J., joined.
 

snostar

Senior Member
rmet4nzkx said:
Federal Rules of Evidence 702, "DAUBERT v. MERRELL DOW"
Thanks, I never would have associated 702 with this quote......until now.
Have a bowl of ice cream for me, would ya?
:D
 

rmet4nzkx

Senior Member
snostar said:
Thanks, I never would have associated 702 with this quote......until now. That is because I'm a forensic expert and you are not. Anyone can plug in the quote and come up with Carl Sagan, but you won't come up with the link to the EC's without knowing Daubert and the law. Same thing for the other thread today re paternity. No, it wasn't quick research either, because I have quoted it in at least 2 other threads in July, lol! One of these days you will learn to trust me. :D
Have a bowl of ice cream for me, would ya?
:D
:) just downed some more fresh raspberries, yummmmm already had the ice cream.
:D, I'm glad you are not upset this time. Also look at a thread on expungement you responded by telling the person to tell the truth, he didn't like that but I said that was the right answer, I still calls them as I sees them, doesn't matter who says them or my personal feelings.
BTW, I used to go around saying, "You learn something new everyday" only to have someone inform me that Ben Franklin said it first! He has some nerve if you ask me, he said so many memorable things, couldn't he leave one for me? :D
 

snostar

Senior Member
rmet4nzkx said:
:) just downed some more fresh raspberries, yummmmm already had the ice cream.
:D, I'm glad you are not upset this time. Also look at a thread on expungement you responded by telling the person to tell the truth, he didn't like that but I said that was the right answer, I still calls them as I sees them, doesn't matter who says them or my personal feelings.
BTW, I used to go around saying, "You learn something new everyday" only to have someone inform me that Ben Franklin said it first! He has some nerve if you ask me, he said so many memorable things, couldn't he leave one for me? :D
OT
I wasn't upset with you, when I believe in something I follow it through. Between you and me, I think the father should file and hopefully pursue visitation if the test is ordered, that's just my personal view. I try to learn something new every 5 minutes. From now on I'll keep an eye out for outstanding quotes in your posts.....I'm bound to find a memorable one! :D
 

rmet4nzkx

Senior Member
snostar said:
OT
I wasn't upset with you, when I believe in something I follow it through. Between you and me, I think the father should file and hopefully pursue visitation if the test is ordered, that's just my personal view. I try to learn something new every 5 minutes. From now on I'll keep an eye out for outstanding quotes in your posts.....I'm bound to find a memorable one! :D
I hope he does too, Now how much you want to bet he isn't the father, or at least she isn't sure he's the father?
 

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