Stalker poses abduction risk to out-of-state college student

[TimeCruncher]

What is the name of your state? California

I am a resident of California.

My spouse and I--both in our mid-fifties--have been stalked by an estranged (blood) relative with a 35+ year history of illegal conduct, including the interstate abduction of an adult relative, and persistent harassment of and threats (including threats of bodily harm) against relatives, in-laws, and their personal and professional associates. The stalker has never had contact with our child, but has made two confirmed, carefully-planned attempts to gain access to our child, the first of which enabled us to obtain a 3-year Calif. RO (1997-2000) against the stalker, who has posed a continuing abduction risk to our child, now a college-bound teen.

The stalker, a resident of New York State, is--to the best of our knowledge--still living, and will likely still be living when our teen enters college in Fall 2008. Our teen, an exceptional high-achiever who intends to pursue an academic program offered by very few U.S. universities, is currently considering and preparing to apply to both in-state and out-of-state colleges, all of which are highly selective, and three of which are located in New York State.

Our knowledge of the stalker's history makes us certain that the stalker, long confirmed to use private investigators and personal agents to monitor our family, will quickly discover the location of our teen's college, and will travel there to confront and attempt to abduct our teen. We are certain this will occur regardless of where our teen is attending college. However, we think it will be easier for the stalker to succeed at--and possibly avoid federal prosecution for--an abduction if it takes place entirely within the stalker's home state. Therefore, we are advising our teen to drop consideration of colleges located in New York State. Our teen is willing to heed our advice.

We must balance concern for our teen's safety with concern for our teen's academic needs, which will very likely include attending college out-of-state. However, the abduction risk posed by the stalker is real, and we (and our teen) take this risk seriously. How we can best protect our teen, and how we can best respond to an abduction or attempted abduction when it occurs?

We would appreciate your advice. Thank you.

[CdwJava]

Your statements infer that this stalker is very old ... is that the case?

How and why might this man try to take your son? I would think that as an adult your son should be able to see to his own wellbeing ... just how long will you be holding his hand because of this person?

If he is truly stalking your son, then he can go to jail. if his behavior is not criminal but ongoing and weird, then you can at least try for another TRO. However, serving an out of state TRO - and enforcing it - are difficult. Since the last attempt seems to have occurred ten years ago, it may be time to ask yourself just how rational your fears are now given the advancing years and the (hopefully) maturing of your child.

Personally, it is hard to say based upon your post whether your fears are reasonable and rational, or just carryovers from something that happened more than ten years ago.

- Carl

[fairisfair]

Your statements infer that this stalker is very old ... is that the case?

How and why might this man try to take your son? I would think that as an adult your son should be able to see to his own wellbeing ... just how long will you be holding his hand because of this person?

If he is truly stalking your son, then he can go to jail. if his behavior is not criminal but ongoing and weird, then you can at least try for another TRO. However, serving an out of state TRO - and enforcing it - are difficult. Since the last attempt seems to have occurred ten years ago, it may be time to ask yourself just how rational your fears are now given the advancing years and the (hopefully) maturing of your child.

Personally, it is hard to say based upon your post whether your fears are reasonable and rational, or just carryovers from something that happened more than ten years ago.

- Carl

Just curious, how did you get that the "teen" is a boy??

[CdwJava]

Just curious, how did you get that the "teen" is a boy??

Using the generic "he" is easier than typing "he/she" or "him/her" continuously throughout the reply.

2. anyone (without reference to sex); that person: He who hesitates is lost.

_Usage note Traditionally, the masculine singular pronouns he1, his, and him have been used generically to refer to indefinite pronouns like anyone, everyone, and someone (Everyone who agrees should raise his right hand) and to singular nouns that can be applied to either sex (painter, parent, person, teacher, writer, etc.): Every writer knows that his first book is not likely to be a bestseller. This generic use is often criticized as sexist, although many speakers and writers continue the practice.

And, by experience, these things often involve either boys, or, they involve children of divorce where a non custodial parent tries to get custody. In instances of stranger infatuation, for some reason it seems to often be boys that are the targets of such passion, girls seem to arouse a more immediate passion rather than a long term infatuation. But, that's based solely on my experience and training in juvenile crimes ,... the true numbers MAY be different, and this situation could be something completely different.

- Carl

[TimeCruncher]

Thank you for your prompt response, CdwJava.

Given that this Forum can be read by the cyber-public, I have intentionally concealed the gender and specific age of each person involved.

There are no divorces or custodial issues pertaining to this situation. The stalker has been married, widowed, and is now remarried. My spouse and I have been married for nearly twenty years. Our teen is our biological child, and has resided in our two-parent household since birth.

The stalker is young enough to be mentally astute and physically active, and old enough to be financially secure. The stalker is able to plan an abduction attempt, able to travel long-distance, and able to hire private investigators as well as "professional" kidnappers (which the stalker has repeatedly threatened to do). Moreover, the stalker is confirmed to be assisted by an equally physically active and financially secure second spouse and extended family of in-laws (all of whom are strangers to us) who are scattered throughout the U.S., and in at least one foreign country. An abduction could result in our teen being transported to one or more of a number of known--and unknown--U.S. locations, or across either international border, or even overseas.

The stalker's conduct has been ongoing for 35+ years, and by reasonable people's standards, is decidedly weird. However, the stalker is not insane--just profoundly self-centered, dogged, and ruthless. The stalker is also intelligent, articulate, and a skilled liar. There is a pattern to the stalker's conduct which has remained unchanged, and has become recognizable and predictable. The stalker maintains a low, uncommunicative profile for several years, while quietly gathering information provided by private investigators and personal agents. Then, the stalker makes a sudden but carefully-planned and dramatic attempt to gain access to our child. The stalker has made at least four such attempts, but has been sanctioned only once, ten years ago, when--based upon witness statements provided by school personnel--we were able to obtain an RO.

The stalker has been in "low profile mode" since the most recent (failed) attempt to gain access to our child five years ago, which again took place at our child's school. The stalker is actively gathering information; we recognize the signs. As our teen approaches legal adulthood, high school graduation, and college entrance, we are certain that the stalker is preparing to strike again. We--and our teen--intend to make it as difficult as possible for the stalker to succeed.

Other than the abduction risk posed by the stalker, we have no qualms about our teen attending college away from home. We are not being over-protective, but exercising the vigilance our former (RO) attorney recommended we maintain for as long as the stalker is alive. Fortunately, our teen is socially and emotionally mature, streetwise, and savvy about personal safety. Our teen is also clean-living, and has never engaged in the forms of reckless behavior which could cause our teen to disappear from college for any reason other than abduction by the stalker.

We think it is advisable for our teen to keep at least one state line between college and the stalker. However, we don't know how an attempted or successful abduction would be handled by authorities. Would our teen--a full-time college student--be considered a California resident even if attending college outside California, or would our teen be considered a part-time resident of the college state? If the stalker leaves New York State to actively participate in an abduction, but our teen is never transported outside the college state, would federal kidnapping charges still apply? If the stalker remains in New York State, but arranges for others to abduct and transport our teen to New York State, would federal charges apply to the stalker as well as to the physical kidnappers? If our teen is abducted and transported from the college state to a state other than New York, or is transported to Canada or Mexico, or is transported overseas, which laws apply?

We have tried to research this information ourselves, but it is complicated. We know that we cannot obtain a "pre-emptive" TRO, and we know that serving an out-of-state TRO is difficult (although we succeeded in doing so ten years ago). We have to consider all the possibilities--including the unlikely possibility that the stalker will do nothing--and be prepared for the stalker to make the move we reasonably anticipate, based upon the stalker's 35+ year conduct history.

If you can offer further advice, such as practical advice about the best way for our teen to inform college security personnel of this situation, and suggestions for legal resources we can research to inform ourselves about stalking and abduction laws as they would pertain to full-time college students (and particularly to full-time out-of-state college students), we would appreciate it.

Thank you again for your prompt reply to my post, and thank you for the information you have already provided.

[CdwJava]

What was the nature of this previous attempt? And if this person lies so low, how did he come onto your radar screen? How did he or she come across your child?

How did you determine the stalker had a 35+ year history of these attempted abductions?

I will assume that your fears are grounded in some articulable facts and not simply paranoia, but such complete stranger stalkings are extremely rare - rarer in the covert method that you describe. If it is so low key, it would seem logical that you would not be able to detect the machinations if they exist. If a verifiable attempt was made on your child, why was no criminal charge pursued? If there was enough for a TRO there would seem to have been enough proof for a criminal charge. What prevented that?

If an abduction WERE to occur, the feds would almost certainly get involved. Unless or until the victim were transported across state lines, chances are the feds would simply monitor the case.

Whether your child is a resident of NY or whatever state he or she plans to attend would depend upon the laws in that state. For most purposes, he or she would be a guest of that state but a resident of CA. However, for certain things he or she might be considered a resident of NY. Yes, the child COULD obtain a TRO in NY (or try to), but as an adult, it would be incumbent upon that child to do this.

You can certainly advise college security or police personnel of the situation, but keep in mind that this does not create any kind of special relationship between them and you or your child, and there is no guarantee that they might either pre-empt or prevent any abduction. Plus, if you were to give them the info it would have to be far more specific than what you have written here or you could not count on any aid.

This is very peculiar, and absent at least some details, specific advice is difficult. Sorry.

- Carl

[xylene]

CdwJava advice is excellent and he is giving you the law absolutely straight.

I realize this is a complex situation, but I want to point out that without a discussion of motive this sounds a bit paranoid. That isn't an accusation, but without a "why"its hard to understand Our discussion of why is limited by the public nature of this discourse, as you mention.

The stalker is young enough to be mentally astute and physically active, and old enough to be financially secure. The stalker is able to plan an abduction attempt, able to travel long-distance, and able to hire private investigators as well as "professional" kidnappers (which the stalker has repeatedly threatened to do). Moreover, the stalker is confirmed to be assisted by an equally physically active and financially secure second spouse and extended family of in-laws (all of whom are strangers to us) who are scattered throughout the U.S., and in at least one foreign country. An abduction could result in our teen being transported to one or more of a number of known--and unknown--U.S. locations, or across either international border, or even overseas.

Again - what is the motive? Sexual explotiation, you are rich... Saudi Royalty?

Why that matters? Its easy enough to sexually exploit some homeless kid, and many rich people

Have these matters been documented by the police? To what end? The attempted abduction? Who was arrested?

The stalker's conduct has been ongoing for 35+ years, and by reasonable people's standards, is decidedly weird. However, the stalker is not insane--just profoundly self-centered, dogged, and ruthless. The stalker is also intelligent, articulate, and a skilled liar. There is a pattern to the stalker's conduct which has remained unchanged, and has become recognizable and predictable. The stalker maintains a low, uncommunicative profile for several years, while quietly gathering information provided by private investigators and personal agents. Then, the stalker makes a sudden but carefully-planned and dramatic attempt to gain access to our child. The stalker has made at least four such attempts, but has been sanctioned only once, ten years ago, when--based upon witness statements provided by school personnel--we were able to obtain an RO.

Is your son over 35? Or do you mean he has been harassing your family for 35 years

I don't want you to take this the wrong way. Because what is happening is crazy. Which is going to make people think you are crazy. People do harass people for decades.

Be pro-active. See a psychiatrist, that way no one will be able to deride you as it "being all in your head"

The stalker has been in "low profile mode" since the most recent (failed) attempt to gain access to our child five years ago, which again took place at our child's school. The stalker is actively gathering information; we recognize the signs. As our teen approaches legal adulthood, high school graduation, and college entrance, we are certain that the stalker is preparing to strike again.

Is this a hunch or do you have credible intelligence of that?

Other than the abduction risk posed by the stalker, we have no qualms about our teen attending college away from home. We are not being over-protective, but exercising the vigilance our former (RO) attorney recommended we maintain for as long as the stalker is alive. Fortunately, our teen is socially and emotionally mature, streetwise, and savvy about personal safety.

Our teen is also clean-living, and has never engaged in the forms of reckless behavior which could cause our teen to disappear from college for any reason other than abduction by the stalker.

Past performance does not equal future results. The prestigious colleges have all the good drugs.

---

If you can offer further advice, such as practical advice about the best way for our teen to inform college security personnel of this situation, and suggestions for legal resources we can research to inform ourselves about stalking and abduction laws as they would pertain to full-time college students (and particularly to full-time out-of-state college students), we would appreciate it.

Best practical way. Approach them by mail, with a letter from an attorney, laying out a CREDIBLE (ie articulated with motive)case for why your son might be at risk.

Consider hiring your own private dick if you suspect you are under surveillance.

[fairisfair]

Using the generic "he" is easier than typing "he/she" or "him/her" continuously throughout the reply.

2. anyone (without reference to sex); that person: He who hesitates is lost.

_Usage note Traditionally, the masculine singular pronouns he1, his, and him have been used generically to refer to indefinite pronouns like anyone, everyone, and someone (Everyone who agrees should raise his right hand) and to singular nouns that can be applied to either sex (painter, parent, person, teacher, writer, etc.): Every writer knows that his first book is not likely to be a bestseller. This generic use is often criticized as sexist, although many speakers and writers continue the practice.

And, by experience, these things often involve either boys, or, they involve children of divorce where a non custodial parent tries to get custody. In instances of stranger infatuation, for some reason it seems to often be boys that are the targets of such passion, girls seem to arouse a more immediate passion rather than a long term infatuation. But, that's based solely on my experience and training in juvenile crimes ,... the true numbers MAY be different, and this situation could be something completely different.

- Carl

I wasn't questioning you Carl, I was just curious, that's all.

[CdwJava]

I wasn't questioning you Carl, I was just curious, that's all.

No problem at all ... I wasn't trying to be flippant, only to explain my thought process.

- Carl

[Bruno]

The stalker is able to plan an abduction attempt, able to travel long-distance, and able to hire private investigators as well as "professional" kidnappers (which the stalker has repeatedly threatened to do).

i would like to commend you on the fine upbringing of your dear daughter. if you have any declaration or record of such threats emanating from the 'stalker,' then you may be able to proceed with criminal charges against him.

[TimeCruncher]

As a new member of this forum, I don't know the protocol for posting. I am posting once again to address the questions you have raised since my second post, and to thank you for your help.

To CdwJava: Thank you for your second post. We will start researching states' anti-stalking laws and residency policies. It is encouraging to learn that federal authorities would at least monitor an abduction, even if state lines aren't crossed. We know it will be necessary for us to provide our teen's college security staff with verifiable information more detailed than should post on a public forum. Your comment that our teen will have no "special relationship" with college security is one we will emphasize to our teen. We want to do whatever we can, however, to maximize the chance that college security will respond quickly to an attempted or successful abduction.

The biggest obstacles we have encountered in prosecuting the stalker are: the stalker's use of private investigators, and the reluctance of potential witnesses to get involved in the situation because the stalker is our blood relative (not a stranger). Skilled investigators remain virtually unnoticed by us (but the unskilled ones are often obvious). We have found that most people who have reported being contacted, harassed, and even threatened by the stalker are subsequently reluctant to "take sides" in what they believe to be a "family squabble."

We think the stalker has attempted to abduct our child at least four times (two confirmed and two suspected). The first time was fifteen years ago, when a man identifying himself as a "special agent" talked his way into our apartment, past a neighbor who was pet-tending for us while we were on vacation. The "special agent" began asking our neighbor about us, then suddenly shoved her aside and began striding through our apartment, yelling, "Where's the kid?" The man then thrust a business card at our neighbor, told her, "Have them call me," and then left our apartment and the property. Our neighbor called the police, who cruised the neighborhood to see if the man was lurking around. When we returned from vacation, we checked out the "special agent," whose business card had a name, a local address, and two phone numbers. Both phone numbers were out-of-service, the address was a downtown parking lot, and none of the local, state, and federal agencies we called had an agent by the name of the man on the card. We suspect the "special agent" was a kidnapper.

The second time was five years later, when the stalker personally confronted school staff. However, that event enabled us to obtain our TRO, and then, a three-year RO against the stalker.

The third time was four years later. We received two hang-up calls several hours apart identified by Caller ID as having been placed from a motel located about two miles from our apartment building. After the second hang-up call, we suspected the stalker was in town, at the motel. We grabbed our child and went to our in-laws' house. The following day, our next-door neighbor told us that (about a half hour after we left our apartment the previous night) a group of people including a man and woman fitting the description of the stalker's in-laws who had harassed our property manager and (then-different) tenants four years earlier, two men who "looked like thugs," and one or two other people showed up at our building, banged on our apartment door, and yelled for us persistently until our property manager threatened to call the police. Our neighbor said the people left immediately, she heard car doors slamming, and then heard two cars speed away. We suspect that the "thugs" accompanying the stalker's in-laws were kidnappers.

The most recent attempt was five years ago, while our child was attending middle school. We received a phone call from our child, stating that s/he had been called out of class to see a CPS investigator who had come to the school. Our child was upset (but calm), and told us that the CPS investigator had promptly sent him/her back to class, but that the investigator was going to phone us for information. The investigator called minutes later, and stated that an accusation of severe child neglect against us had been reported to CPS the previous week. The investigator stated that she had come to the school prepared to take our child into custody, but after meeting with our child "for less than a minute," knew the report of child neglect was "baseless." The investigator wanted information, particularly concerning any personal enemies we might have. We told the investigator about the stalker (name, address, and physical description) and about our history with the stalker, including the details of events leading to the now-expired RO. The investigator--after a long pause--told us that the report against us would be dropped immediately, and stated, "CPS will not be used in this manner." The investigator said she was not permitted to reveal the report source's identity, but told us to "be careful," and advised us to contact our attorney because, "You might need another RO." We promptly contacted the school office, but school staff claimed to have no information about the CPS investigator's visit, and stated, "CPS comes here almost every day; we don't ask why." The next day, however, our child encountered the student assistant who had escorted our child from class to the room where the investigator had been waiting; the student assistant--a stranger to our child, and someone who knew nothing about the stalker--told our child that she had seen another person (who fit the stalker's physical description) standing and talking with the CPS investigator. We were convinced that the stalker made the fraudulent CPS report, and was present at the school that day, intending to abduct our child. Our attorney told us that it would be difficult for us to pursue another RO based upon this incident alone because CPS and the school were likely to be uncooperative, and because the only person acknowledging to have seen the stalker at school was a child not much older than our own. Years later, my spouse, our teen, and I still wonder what might have happened if the CPS investigator had been less experienced, cautious, and thorough.

Thank you again, CdwJava. You have been very helpful.

To xylene: Thank you for your post. Yes, this situation is complex (especially because the stalker is a blood relative, not a stranger), and yes, given the public nature of this forum, I must not provide too many details, even details forum members might find useful. I don't take offense at your skepticism; my spouse and I used to it. We have often encountered skepticism from security staff, police, and attorneys, especially during the years before states began passing anti-stalking laws. We know that few people are stalked, and even fewer are stalked by blood relatives, so we know our situation sounds crazy to most people, and we sound "crazy" to some people. Regardless, we sought our TRO for compelling reasons, and the RO was granted based upon evidence. We hope the RO, though long expired, will lend support to our teen's credibility with college campus police.

My spouse and I have already considered hiring our own private investigator, at least to obtain current photos of the stalker which we can provide to our teen and our teen's college. We have also discussed hiring an investigator just before our teen graduates from high school, and if the investigator confirms (or even suspects) that the stalker has traveled here and is in our area, we and our teen will bypass the graduation ceremony. We do plan to contact our teen's college in writing next summer or fall, with a detailed explanation and documentation of our situation. As you suggested, an accompanying letter from an attorney will bolster our credibility.

Regarding the stalker's motive: my spouse and I can only speculate. The motive isn't money, because neither the stalker nor any of the stalker's relatives is rich. The stalker is, however, a self-proclaimed childhood bully who became the sort of adult who relishes intimidating children and instigating dissension among adult relatives and friends. Over the past 35+ years, as the stalker has lost relatives and friends to death, geographic relocation, and estrangement, the stalker's conduct has become increasingly vindictive, particularly toward estranged relatives and their children, with whom the stalker claims to have a "right" to "a relationship." My spouse and I, and our child--now a teen--are among that group of estranged relatives. The stalker antagonizes and alienates those with whom s/he professes to want "a relationship," so it seems to us that what the stalker really wants is the thrill of the chase. The stalker simply enjoys stalking.

To Bruno: Thank you for your post. The stalker is intelligent, shrewd, and has usually been cautious about written communication. The stalker's most extreme and explicit threats against us and others--including the "professional" kidnapper threats--have always been made verbally, over the phone (occasionally face-to-face), and thus, are undocumented. The stalker knows we would bring written threats to the attention of authorities promptly, and arrest and criminal charges would result, as you have pointed out. We have been screening our incoming calls with an answering machine and Caller ID for many years, and we have been keeping a written log of incoming calls, as well. We have also, during times of frequent harassment hang-up calls, inquired about having a "trap" placed on our phone, but have been dissuaded from doing so.

To fairisfair: Thank you for your posts, although not made in direct response to mine. Your posts have prompted me to proofread and revise before posting.

[Bruno]

Thank you for the update! I was very concerned about the unfolding of this saga and its effect upon your family. I was going to suggest hiring an investigator, but you are already considering one. To obtain irrefutable evidence of misdeed by the stalker, I suggest setting up a "sting operation" in consultation with and under the advisement of the investigator and law authorities.

[TimeCruncher]

Thank you for your second post, Bruno.

Your suggestion is pragmatic (and, I must admit, appealing), and yet, I can't help but wonder about the legality of a "sting operation." If you simply meant that we should be exceptionally well-prepared for the stalker to initiate action, then--I would think--when the stalker does initiate action, s/he would be walking into a legal trap of his/her own making. I hope that's what you meant, because that's how I'd like to look at it. My spouse and I will mention your suggestion to the private investigators we speak with, before we decide which investigator to hire.

My spouse and I have never hired a private investigator before, so finding one will be a new challenge for us. We are going to have to be careful about the investigator we choose. We want someone reputable, who is unwilling to break the law. My spouse and I do not want to be accused of stalking by the stalker, and we certainly don't want to be the ones ending up in jail.

Thank you again for your pragmatic advice, and also for your concern about our family.

[Bruno]

Based on what has already been documented here and your extremely well-written story (that leads me to believe you are an avid literary reader as your punctuation and grammar is impeccable), I truly hope other senior advisers in this forum with their collective brain power come up with an out-of-the-box lawyering idea and solution to your seemingly intractable problem. Again, please keep us updated on how this case evolves, and, in the meantime, I wish all the best for your family.

[TimeCruncher]

Thank you for your third post, and for your call to fellow forum members to come up with a lawyerly solution to my family's situation.

This is the first forum I have ever joined. I have seen that this is a fast-moving forum, so I understand that my initial and follow-up posts have probably already generated as many (useful and appreciated) responses as I can reasonably expect to receive. However, I will continue checking back to see if forum members have offered any additional suggestions.

Frankly, I don't expect my family's situation to be resolved until the stalker--a "won't-take-'No'-for-an-answer" person--dies. As ghoulish as this sounds, for the five years my spouse and I have owned our first computer (yes, we are technological dinosaurs), we have checked the stalker's hometown newspaper's website daily, hoping to see the stalker's name listed in the death notices. Until that future day of relief and release, we--and now, our teen--must remain vigilant.

Thank you for your compliment on my writing skills, for which I fully credit my teachers. (I take full blame for my writing blunders, of which there always seem to be too many.) You are correct in discerning that I am an avid reader; however, I read mostly nonfiction--often by choice, but more often by necessity. I wish I had more time to read literature, but then, I wish I had more time for everything (hence, my User Name).

Thank you once again, Bruno. I will keep an eye on this thread for any additional posts.