theft???

[bugsbnny]

What is the name of your state? Ca

My husband is military & being charged with theft of govenment property. The thing is that we bought the tools at yard sales & flea markets. The officers are asking for recipts -- who gives a recipt at a yard sale??? I don't even remember where these yard sales were. It has been over a period of 3 years. In hind sight I guess we should have looked more closly to what we were buying, but it never accurd to us then. I guess my question now is what do we do? Are we still liable? The officers came to our house apon invitation from my husband -- he didn't know that they were stolen. They found some stuff that belonged to the military at one time & was marked as such. To me it all seems surcomstantial, but is that enough for the military? What is the difference in Civilian Law? Can he be charged on both? The military has given him a JAG lawyer, should we get a civilian one too?

 

[djohnson]

What might help is more infor pertaining to what has happened. Was this police or MP's that 'came' to your house and found this stuff? Why did they suspect that this stuff was at your residence? They had to have more information to even have them look towards your husband. What was this?

 

[JETX]

Couple of questions just scream to be asked on this one.....
1) Could the 'garage sale' defense be just his version.... or were you personally there at the purchase??
2) Your post says your husband is in the 'military'. Are the subject items something that he would have access to? For example, if he is in the Navy and these are Air Force items.
3) Most, if not all, items should be clearly marked as "Property of". Do they have these markings??
4) Since your post says that these were recovered by the MP's, we assume that this is a military issue only and civilian laws would not apply.
5) Finally, were the items recovered from on-base or off-base housing? Were the items reported stolen from on-base or off-base?? These both go to the issue of jurisdiction. If on-base, then that would ONLY involve federal (and not local) jurisdiction.

 

[Son of Slam]

If you are on government property, your husband is government property and the tools are government property. No harm -- no foul. He is merely using them.

If you are off government property, in time of war, he could be hanged.

 

[bugsbnny]

ok to answer some of the questions ...

yes I was present at some of the purchases.

we are living in town not in on base houseing.

they were not -- I don't think -- MP's I believe they were NCIS (not sure what the difference is, but that is what hubby is calling them).

we have "friends" that come over & seen some items that is how things were reported. we also have roommates -- he is not the only military member here that had access to the tools or to the shed where they were found.

the items were marked, but not as plainly as I would suspect that things would be as in "property of ..." just with little marks such as you would mark your tools at home with like initials & such case in point some were marked "pw". (military - public works; civilian - Paul Winters -- or who ever)

so I hope this might show a little more light on my situation & I can't remember any of the other questions so I will close this for now.

 

[loocpoc]

Well first off the Navy does NOT have Military police. They have Master At Arms and is very different from NCIS. NCIS handles all crimes considered "Felonies" under the Uniform Code Of Military Justice (UCMJ). He would probably be charged with Article 108 Of The UCMJ and would probably be given an Article 15 most likely (if the theft is under $1000).

Article 108 Of The UCMJ is as Follows:

ART. 108. MILITARY PROPERTY OF UNITED STATES-LOSS, DAMAGE, DESTRUCTION, OR WRONGFUL DISPOSITION
Any person subject to this chapter who, without proper authority--
(1) sells or otherwise disposes of;
(2) willfully ore through neglect damages, destroys, or loses; or
(3) willfully or through neglect suffers to be lost, damaged, sold, or wrongfully disposed of;
any military property of the United States, shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.


PW marked on the tools would mean they are the property of Public Works and usually followed with a US Govt Serial number.

Your husband will not be charged under the Title 18 Of the US Code since there is an applicable UCMJ charge. He can not be tried by both a civilian and military court since that would fall under the "Double Jeopardy" rule. I personally would go for a civilain lawyer who is knowledgable with military law and who will do a decent job investigating. I worked with and alongside NCIS and I think most of them are morons.


Do you mind me asking what base this was in CA?

 

[loocpoc]

Couple of questions just scream to be asked on this one.....
1) Could the 'garage sale' defense be just his version.... or were you personally there at the purchase??
2) Your post says your husband is in the 'military'. Are the subject items something that he would have access to? For example, if he is in the Navy and these are Air Force items.
3) Most, if not all, items should be clearly marked as "Property of". Do they have these markings??
4) Since your post says that these were recovered by the MP's, we assume that this is a military issue only and civilian laws would not apply.
5) Finally, were the items recovered from on-base or off-base housing? Were the items reported stolen from on-base or off-base?? These both go to the issue of jurisdiction. If on-base, then that would ONLY involve federal (and not local) jurisdiction.

Just because the Navy MAA's or NCIS were to recover the tools, a person can be charged under applicable Federal statutes since the US District and Applette courts have held that Title 18 can be enforced within the jurisdiction of where the crime happend,which is the base. When I worked at Naval base Ventura County, it was regular of us to issue out Federal citations to both military and civilians for violating federal and assimilative crimes act (Feds assimilaiting state law) on Federal property everything from traffic violations to Minor felonies.

Not necisarrily. If the jurisdiction is Concurrent than the local authorites may come in (usually at the request of either the JAG or USAO) and prosecute the crime.

 

[racer72]

Loopac, you are wrong about the Navy not have MP's. I spent many hours working as an MP while I was in the Navy in San Diego. The Master-At-Arms deals with on base discipline of military personal, the MP's handle the rest of the Navy's police work, problems with personal off base and civilians on base. If the case involved a Navy sailor, NIS (Naval Investigative Services) would be the legal authority dealing with the case.

 

[JETX]

I felt the same way... and if correct, they are called 'shore patrol' when on land.

Take a look at:
MILPERSMAN 1630-010
NAVAL SECURITY FORCES ASHORE AND AFLOAT
Governing SECNAVINST 5530.4B
http://buperscd.technology.navy.mil/bup_updt/upd_CD/BUPERS/MILPERS/MILPERSMAN 1630 - SHORE PATROL AND MILITARY POLIC.PDF

 

[loocpoc]

Loopac, you are wrong about the Navy not have MP's. I spent many hours working as an MP while I was in the Navy in San Diego. The Master-At-Arms deals with on base discipline of military personal, the MP's handle the rest of the Navy's police work, problems with personal off base and civilians on base. If the case involved a Navy sailor, NIS (Naval Investigative Services) would be the legal authority dealing with the case.

The United States Navy DOES NOT again and I repeat have a Military police force. They have Master At Arms and NEC 9545 (Auxilary patrol officers) who preform Law enforcement functions.

NIS is no longer around. It is now called NCIS (http://www.ncis.navy.mil) and handles all felonies involving money over $1000 and all other felonies that do not fall under MAI or Master At Arms Investigations.

http://www.navcops.com is a good source on Navy LE.

I spent alot of time in Navy LE and work right next door to NTC/NavSta Great Lakes. I was a civilian criminal investigator and police officer on 2 navy bases in California.

 

[JETX]

I think that part of this may be confusion.... and partly symantics.

From my cursory research, the Navy DOES have Military Police (as shown in the SECNAV document referred in my previous post).

However, to be an MP, Navy personnel must be Master-At-Arms First Class Petty Officers.

For more:
http://neds.nebt.daps.mil/5580.htm
http://www.navymaa.com/
http://www.navyadvancement.com/rate/master-at-arms.asp

And here is a site to the ENTIRE Naval MP/Master-at-Arms training manual:
http://www.tpub.com/maa/

 

[bugsbnny]

Ok guys ... this is all really great, but can we get back to what I was asking in the first place??? whoever they were they had badges, ok ... can we leave it at that? does anyone have any infomation that might help me with the problem at hand? I don't care what they call themselves, or what anyone else calls them, they had badges.

 

[JETX]

Okay, here are answers to each of your original questions:

"The officers are asking for recipts -- who gives a recipt at a yard sale???"
*** Usually no one. But then, who buys items marked as owned by someone else without at least having SOME 'alarms' going off.

"I guess my question now is what do we do?"
*** Get an attorney and try to present any REASONABLE defense that you can.

"Are we still liable?"
*** Yes.

"The officers came to our house apon invitation from my husband -- he didn't know that they were stolen. They found some stuff that belonged to the military at one time & was marked as such."
*** Gee, marked as OWNED by the military and you still "bought" at a garage sale. The old 'alarms' should have really been going off!! And further makes this 'defense' questionable.

"To me it all seems surcomstantial, but is that enough for the military?"
*** Since we don't know ALL the facts (the other sides), we certainly have to assume that it is 'enough' for them.

"What is the difference in Civilian Law?"
*** Difference between what.... and what??

"Can he be charged on both?"
*** In some circumstances, it is unlikely for both military and civilian charges, but it can be done. If your husband (or you) are in the military now AND if this 'crime' occured on government property, it is likely to be military.

"The military has given him a JAG lawyer, should we get a civilian one too?"
*** Probably not yet.

 

[nowpastdue]

I am NOT an attorney.

Proceed to your nearest military base that has a Property Disposal Yard, better yet if it has a "store" where small items are sold at a set price. At the store the sale is an ongoing thing, at the regular sales the sales are normally at set intervals.

Especially at the "sales" store look at the hand tools, this is a staple.

Normally, property markings, serial numbers, etc are not obliterated.

I don't know, and apparently no one else does either, if the articles were indeed stolen or came onto the civilian market in a legal manner.

A visit to the store/yard can provide one alternate theory and reasonable doubt.