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welfare fraud

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quincy

Senior Member
I am being investigated what do I do?
Welfare fraud is when you receive benefits knowing you are not entitled to them. Fraud is when you receive benefits because you either lied on your application about your need, your earnings, your marital or family status or living situation, or because you omitted vital information on your application about the same.

When you are investigated, the investigators will contact your employer to check on income earned, and they will contact your landlord if you rent. They will check on who is living in your home with you and will check into their income and assets. They will be checking to see if you are under-reporting income and if you have assets you have failed to report.

You do NOT have to speak to investigators and you do NOT have to let them into your home unless they have a warrant.

Social services has increased their enforcement efforts in Missouri in recent years, due to the rampant abuse of the system. If an investigation shows that you have received benefits you are not entitled to due to fault on your part, you can be arrested and charged with theft. If you are found guilty, you can be jailed and ordered to repay all of the money you obtained through fraudulent means.

I agree with Zigner that, if you know you are being investigated for welfare fraud, speaking with an attorney in your area is the smartest action you can take.
 
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commentator

Senior Member
And I would say this greatly depends. If this person has been committing some flagrant fraud and they know it, perhaps an attorney might be a good idea. And it that's the case, you doubtless have enough money to pay that attorney, because you didn't need the welfare in the first place.

But you forget, these are people who are qualified or somewhere in the vicinity of qualified for public assistance. They probably don't have a lot of spare income for an attorney to represent them, and may not need one. They may want to talk to Legal Aid, but actually, even more so than unemployment insurance, "welfare" or whatever it is called in your state does audits and quality measurements and cross checks of income all the time on almost everyone who signs up.

We can't be sure from the information we have here. What this person has received may be nothing more than a "you're being called in to determine if there has been fraud in your case due to some questionable activity we have intercepted," or it may be a regular periodic check to determine if this household is filing correctly and is fully eligible for the benefits and no circumstances have changed. Or it may be that a pissed off family member or friend has called in and reported this person for welfare fraud, whether they are committing it or not. The agency will always send out a letter and do an investigation when they get a call like this, whether they actually find any fraud or not.

I have known social circles where that was standard operating procedure, when you got mad at someone, you automatically called the fraud hotline of the food stamp and public assistance programs and reported the person was committing fraud. Having this person who'd been reported go out and lawyer up and refuse to answer any inquiries until it actually went to civil court would be a very bad move in this case.

Public welfare is an agency, not the criminal court system. Because of the total likelihood of fraud going on all the time, and the constant public criticism of the system due to this fraud, they run investigations all the time. When you are investigated it's not the best idea to lawyer up and stop talking immediately. When you sign up for any needs based public assistance, you sign away your rights to privacy in most every area of your life. When you've agreed to this stuff in order to get the benefits, they don't have to have a warrant to access your tax records, your bank accounts, you dwelling place, etc. to determine if you qualify for assistance.

Refusing to cooperate with this investigation will do nothing but get them to up the ante, probably cause you to be the one who is prosecuted civilly instead of just the standard things, like being sanctioned, and unable to receive benefits for a few months. Legal services for the low income in your area will be a very good resource for you. Most of them have lots of material which will explain to you exactly what the welfare office can and can't do in terms of "investigating" you for welfare fraud and how to reasonably protect yourself from being unjustly sanctioned.
 

commentator

Senior Member
I can't get this thing to edit. I do see what you are talking about when looking at Missouri in particular. It seems they've become very proud lately of their fraud enforcement, have covered up everything with connections encouraging people to report suspected food stamp and welfare fraud. Of course they have, since they've been criticized, made a very big deal out of every person they've prosecuted. The publicity value is priceless.

But to me that's even more making it likely this person is a random subject of an investigation, or that they're not committing welfare fraud but got reported anyhow. And in this case, I do maintain that the person needs to cooperate with the investigation, not clam up and resist them till they bring out their big guns.
 

quincy

Senior Member
... We can't be sure from the information we have here. What this person has received may be nothing more than a "you're being called in to determine if there has been fraud in your case due to some questionable activity we have intercepted," or it may be a regular periodic check to determine if this household is filing correctly and is fully eligible for the benefits and no circumstances have changed. Or it may be that a pissed off family member or friend has called in and reported this person for welfare fraud, whether they are committing it or not. The agency will always send out a letter and do an investigation when they get a call like this, whether they actually find any fraud or not. ...

... Public welfare is an agency, not the criminal court system. Because of the total likelihood of fraud going on all the time, and the constant public criticism of the system due to this fraud, they run investigations all the time. When you are investigated it's not the best idea to lawyer up and stop talking immediately. When you sign up for any needs based public assistance, you sign away your rights to privacy in most every area of your life. When you've agreed to this stuff in order to get the benefits, they don't have to have a warrant to access your tax records, your bank accounts, you dwelling place, etc. to determine if you qualify for assistance.

Refusing to cooperate with this investigation will do nothing but get them to up the ante, probably cause you to be the one who is prosecuted civilly instead of just the standard things, like being sanctioned, and unable to receive benefits for a few months. Legal services for the low income in your area will be a very good resource for you. Most of them have lots of material which will explain to you exactly what the welfare office can and can't do in terms of "investigating" you for welfare fraud and how to reasonably protect yourself from being unjustly sanctioned.
I agree that there is a dearth of information provided by mrskoch. For this reason, we do not know enough to advise mrskoch to cooperate with investigators. To advise this based on the little we know is careless. mrskoch should seek advice from a lawyer in her area for a review of her situation - whether the attorney is one found through a legal aid clinic or through the Yellow Pages.

Yes, there are checks done on all welfare recipients. Information provided by the recipient will be verified on a regular basis to ensure that the recipient is still eligible for the benefits they claim. But welfare offices have investigative units and an investigation will be conducted when there is already some reason to believe that all is not as has been claimed.

I disagree that someone on welfare who is being investigated for welfare fraud should fully cooperate with the investigators. A welfare recipient does not have to answer any questions and a welfare recipient does not have to allow investigators into his/her home without a warrant. Welfare fraud is a crime and it is not charged because welfare recipients have refused to cooperate with investigators. No ante is upped when welfare recipients exercise their rights.

This is no different a situation than when anyone is being investigated by the police for theft or any other crime. You do not answer questions or allow access to your home unless this is done on the advice of your attorney. Whenever anyone is being investigated for any crime (welfare fraud is not a civil action), consultation with an attorney is smart and advised.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
However, since welfare receipt often requires the filing of numerous and frequent documents that require the submitting party to swear to certain facts and make promises (such as reporting income from work, gifts, child support, etc.) failure to cooperate can result in the termination of benefits and even paying them back. So, while one might refuse to cooperate in an effort to avoid a criminal prosecution, such a refusal can result in the end to benefits.

In my experience, it is not all that difficult to prosecute many of these cases ... though, that depends entirely on the facts, of course. It might be difficult to prove that the "friend" who the defendant claims is a frequent "visitor" boyfriend is actually residing at the home, it's not all that difficult to prove that the recipient has a job that they have failed to report for the last 5 months. Welfare fraud is a very paperwork oriented specialty, and these paper trails are quite extensive and often very conclusive.
 

quincy

Senior Member
Welfare benefits cannot be withdrawn or denied to a welfare recipient because they have chosen to exercise their legal rights during an investigation. The benefits that are already being provided are not stopped during an investigation as long as the welfare recipient has complied with the eligibility requirements by submitting the requested documents and information to the agency.

Not admitting you perjured yourself on sworn documents by failing to be honest in what you reported or submitted will naturally result in an end to benefits and the need to pay back what you illegally obtained, if an investigation concludes you committed perjury and fraud and you are charged and convicted. But cooperating with those who are investigating you for welfare fraud would rarely be to your benefit - just as it is generally not to your benefit to speak to the police who are investigating you for criminal acts or to speak to CPS who are investigating you for child abuse or neglect.

Let the investigators do their investigating and they will either be able to build a case against you or not. The burden is on them to prove you committed a crime not on you to prove you didn't.

Cooperation with a prosecutor AFTER you have been charged with welfare fraud and/or perjury can be reasonable, to perhaps get you probation instead of jail time - but, again, an attorney should be consulted before thinking of assisting the fraud investigators in their investigation of you.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
Welfare benefits cannot be withdrawn or denied to a welfare recipient because they have chosen to exercise their legal rights during an investigation.
You are right. And that is NOT what I said. However, failure to provide the proper documentation CAN result in cessation of benefits. And if they have information that shows they have unreported income or other conditions that have changed their situation, they CAN withdraw or modify certain benefits based upon that investigation. Criminal proceedings are another matter and taken far less often than a modification of benefits.

A crime does not have to be proven before action can be taken. Due process is required even for a denial or modification of benefits, but if the recipient declines to participate than due process will take its course with the "evidence" as it stands.
 

Proserpina

Senior Member
And I would say this greatly depends. If this person has been committing some flagrant fraud and they know it, perhaps an attorney might be a good idea. And it that's the case, you doubtless have enough money to pay that attorney, because you didn't need the welfare in the first place.
I just want to make sure, because it's not always possible to read intent online but ... you are kidding, right?
 

quincy

Senior Member
You are right. And that is NOT what I said. However, failure to provide the proper documentation CAN result in cessation of benefits. And if they have information that shows they have unreported income or other conditions that have changed their situation, they CAN withdraw or modify certain benefits based upon that investigation. Criminal proceedings are another matter and taken far less often than a modification of benefits.

A crime does not have to be proven before action can be taken. Due process is required even for a denial or modification of benefits, but if the recipient declines to participate than due process will take its course with the "evidence" as it stands.
Sorry. It sounded to me like that's what you said.

I agree that if a discrepancy is found in what has been reported by an applicant/recipient, benefits may be withdrawn or denied or adjusted accordingly.

All we know from mrskoch, however, is based on the title of her thread (welfare fraud) and her single post (I am being investigated what do I do?).

What mrskoch should do if she is being investigated for welfare fraud (a crime) is to seek the help of an attorney in her area - the same advice that would be (or should be) given anyone who comes to this forum who states they are being investigated for a crime.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
Sorry if I left you with the wrong impression. Sometimes I have to leave in the middle of a post or am distracted by a phone call, and that happened to me a few times over the past few days, so I may have cut my reply short or failed to edit it.

Most such welfare "fraud" cases I know of (and we work often with the state and county welfare fraud folks around here) result in modifications or cessations of benefits rather than criminal prosecution. Usually this is because showing the specific intent required for larceny can be far more difficult than proving the general intent necessary for an administrative action.
 

quincy

Senior Member
Sorry if I left you with the wrong impression. Sometimes I have to leave in the middle of a post or am distracted by a phone call, and that happened to me a few times over the past few days, so I may have cut my reply short or failed to edit it.

Most such welfare "fraud" cases I know of (and we work often with the state and county welfare fraud folks around here) result in modifications or cessations of benefits rather than criminal prosecution. Usually this is because showing the specific intent required for larceny can be far more difficult than proving the general intent necessary for an administrative action.
There are very few features on this site that I couldn't live without easily but the "edit post" feature is definitely not one of them. :) That said, I think it was my reading of your post and not necessarily your writing of it that was at fault.

I have a link somewhere about the stepped-up enforcement efforts being taken this year by many states (including Missouri). These states are not hesitating to prosecute those who have been collecting benefits based on fraudulent applications. Innocent mistakes could still result in modifications or repayment plans but the not-so-innocent claims and omissions are increasingly resulting in criminal prosecutions and convictions (and all of the bad things that come from convictions). If I locate the link, I will add it to this post.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
In CA we are - sadly - pretty lenient about welfare fraud ... I suspect it is because we are a very left-wing state. Many of the Welfare Fraud Departments who run their own law enforcement arms seem to not be all that concerned with prosecutions or even aggressive investigations. Given the perceived pervasiveness of the problem, I am surprised. But, given the tendency in my state to try and give away the taxpayer's money, I guess I should not be.
 

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