At what point is it acceptable to use deadly force? (incident this weekend)

[Wartrace]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Tennessee.

I upset a driver on the interstate, he was travelling in a group of 10-15 cars. I hit my brakes as a message to him to back off my bumper. He over reacted, locked the brakes & almost wrecked. He was very upset.

I became aware that he was travelling with friends when I was swarmed by Honda civics. Some have two- three guys in them, others had just the driver. I estimate that there were up to 15 cars at first but only 7-8 that really got involved.

The original driver & friends tried to make me pull over, but I didn't think that would be good for my health. I decided to exit at the next ramp in the hopes they would continue down the road.

They all foll wed me, trying to get in front of my vehicle down the two lane road. We got to a stop sign and they boxed me in. The vehicle they placed in front of me contained two young children, a woman came running out of that car and jumped on to the hood of my car. The others start beating on my vehicle. I decided to reverse into the car blocking my rear.(I was driving a Chevy silverado 2wd) I moved it back about five-10 feet. It gave me room (almost) to clear the car in front. I did hit the front of the car with the kids in it lightly. My airbag didn't deploy...... I would have pushed it into the ditch across the road if the kids weren't in it.

I was armed with a handgun that day. I have a carry permit, just driving home from work. I did the right thing and made my very best effort to retreat. If I were unable to retreat, at what point would it be justified to commit a homicide to protect myself? When I asked the trooper he told me "It is a grey area". I was thinking the minute they entered the vehicle. (broke the windows)

Any legal perspective? 15 to one odds, I am 25 years older than the fifteen who want to "get me". I can't escape, I am boxed in. Would it be legal to kill?

 

[Ohiogal]

No. YOu could have called the police. You committed crimes there as well except for the fact that I don't believe this happened.

 

[Wartrace]

No. YOu could have called the police. You committed crimes there as well except for the fact that I don't believe this happened.

Ok, I should have clearified. Anyone who is not an idiot have an opinion?

Crimes I commited? Please cite Tennessee law on that scooter.

You don't believe it happened. Why did you bother responding?

Call from where? Should I have asked the individuals to wait while I found a pay phone? Is it some sort of law that one must have a charged cell phone on them 24/7?



On edit;
I CAN NOT believe you have 17,000 post here and posted that. Is this the quality of "advice" here???????? Thanks for not answering anything, you are "special".

 

[mmmagique]

The Civic gang is at it again?!!! When are those crazy kids evah going to learn? (sorry, I know it's not funny, it's just the thought of a gang of people in Civics...erm...actually...it IS kinda funny.)

I'm glad you're ok, though.

I have learned through the years to attempt to avoid ANY kind of confrontation while driving.

I would have tried even harder had I known about the Civic gang!!

~Christina

 

[quincy]

The swarm of Honda Civics caught my attention, too.

Wartrace, the trooper who you talked to is right that it is a grey area.

Tennessee does have a "justifiable homicide" statute. And Tennessee has at least two codified defenses for the use of deadly force - the defense of duress (39-11-504) and the defense of necessity (39-11-609).

With the defense of duress, there must be no reasonable means to escape "the compulsion to commit the offense." The use of deadly force must be one where the person cannot withdraw in safety and there is a well-founded fear of death or serious bodily harm.

With the defense of necessity, a person must reasonably believe deadly force is immediately necessary to avoid imminent harm. There would be an urgency involved with the use of deadly force as a necessity.

In other words, in an extreme situation, where one has a legitimate fear of death or of serious bodily harm, there are possible defenses available for the use of deadly force. These are defenses to the use of deadly force, however, and these do not prevent an arrest and charges being filed against you.

Instead of carrying a gun, I suggest it might be wiser for you to carry a cell phone, and then call the police for assistance.

 

[tranquility]

I don't know the specifics of TN law on the matter, but I recall a self-defense problem when the person claiming it started the encounter. While I think the hitting of the brakes as a "message" would probably not be charged, especially if the OP wises up and does not claim that as his intent, I'm not sure the later actions are sufficiently attenuated from the illegal act to completely allow for a self-defense defense. Besides, the law will be reasonble. Would deadly force be reasonable? Maybe, maybe not.

I do recall an instructive line from the chewtobbaca rag:
Don't spit in the wind, I'll tell you why, tobbacco juice will fly right back in your eye.

 

[Wartrace]

I don't know the specifics of TN law on the matter, but I recall a self-defense problem when the person claiming it started the encounter. While I think the hitting of the brakes as a "message" would probably not be charged, especially if the OP wises up and does not claim that as his intent, I'm not sure the later actions are sufficiently attenuated from the illegal act to completely allow for a self-defense defense. Besides, the law will be reasonble. Would deadly force be reasonable? Maybe, maybe not.

I do recall an instructive line from the chewtobbaca rag:
Don't spit in the wind, I'll tell you why, tobbacco juice will fly right back in your eye.

The other driver pulled up so close to me that I could barely see the rear portion of his roof. I would estimate he was within a foot of my bumper. He backed off twenty feet & then raced back up. He repeated this three times before I hit my brakes. I learned a lesson, next time I will not react at all. If I get hit I get hit.

If it matters, I was behind an 18 wheeler in the passing lane & the right lane had two 18 wheelers in it. Had I a way to move over to allow them to pass I would have.

 

[Wartrace]

The swarm of Honda Civics caught my attention, too.

Wartrace, the trooper who you talked to is right that it is a grey area.

Tennessee does have a "justifiable homicide" statute. And Tennessee has at least two codified defenses for the use of deadly force - the defense of duress (39-11-504) and the defense of necessity (39-11-609).

With the defense of duress, there must be no reasonable means to escape "the compulsion to commit the offense." The use of deadly force must be one where the person cannot withdraw in safety and there is a well-founded fear of death or serious bodily harm.

With the defense of necessity, a person must reasonably believe deadly force is immediately necessary to avoid imminent harm. There would be an urgency involved with the use of deadly force as a necessity.

In other words, in an extreme situation, where one has a legitimate fear of death or of serious bodily harm, there are possible defenses available for the use of deadly force. These are defenses to the use of deadly force, however, and these do not prevent an arrest and charges being filed against you.

Instead of carrying a gun, I suggest it might be wiser for you to carry a cell phone, and then call the police for assistance.

I did have a cell phone but it wasn't charged. I had been called into work & didn't charge it the night before.

As far as carrying a gun, to each his own. As a matter of fact I think it says something that drawing the gun wasn't what I did automatically. I made a second attempt to get away which was successful. They did chase me after I broke away from their roadblock. We reached speeds in excess of 90 mph but I was lucky in that they backed off when we approached town where there are plenty of police officers.

 

[Wartrace]

The Civic gang is at it again?!!! When are those crazy kids evah going to learn? (sorry, I know it's not funny, it's just the thought of a gang of people in Civics...erm...actually...it IS kinda funny.)

I'm glad you're ok, though.

I have learned through the years to attempt to avoid ANY kind of confrontation while driving.

I would have tried even harder had I known about the Civic gang!!

~Christina

There was a car show in town, I guess there are people who thought that "the fast & the furious" was a good movie & they wanted to be like them? Who knows?

They weren't a "gang", just a group of people that were all driving civics who were at the car show. It was rather humorous that they felt they could stop a pickup truck with those little things. That they actually thought I wouldn't push them out of the way if they surrounded & attacked me.

 

[VeronicaLodge]

TN actually has laws about aggressive driving and his original

I hit my brakes as a message to him

would have been illegal

 

[Wartrace]

TN actually has laws about aggressive driving and his original



would have been illegal

Ok, so I could have received a ticket? Does that mean I am not able to defend myself when they followed me off the interstate, boxed me in and attempted to gain entry into my vehicle?

Oh, but "I started it"? Lets not forget the other driver. Is it also against the law to repeatedly run up on the tail of another vehicle and get as close as one foot to the other vehicle? Is that not reckless driving?

I am glad you find the fact I hit my brakes when being tailgated just cause to be set upon by a mob. I suppose I should have taken the beating & hoped they stopped before it was fatal**************.....

Oh, thank you for not even attempting to answer the question, I suspect your reply would be utterly useless as well.

 

[xylene]

I must admit I love brake checking people.

Especially punks in ricer street racers.

BUT it is a very serious act of dangerous and aggressive driving and a crime in itself.

But you do know it could have killed any number of innocent people, even including the tailgater, and that if that had occurred would not have been taken lightly, and you probably would have pulled a criminally negligent homicide rap for it.

Dropping your speed by deceleration or sustained braking is the correct way to handle such drivers.

Not aggressive driving.

Please consider that more carefully, rather than plotting if you are justified or not in shooting someone at the end of your road duel.

 

[Wartrace]

I must admit I love brake checking people.

Especially punks in ricer street racers.

BUT it is a very serious act of dangerous and aggressive driving and a crime in itself.

But you do know it could have killed any number of innocent people, even including the tailgater, and that if that had occurred would not have been taken lightly, and you probably would have pulled a criminally negligent homicide rap for it.

Dropping your speed by deceleration or sustained braking is the correct way to handle such drivers.

Not aggressive driving.

Please consider that more carefully, rather than plotting if you are justified or not in shooting someone at the end of your road duel.

I told the trooper investigating that this is what started the incident. I told him I did not like the fact that the other driver was running up on my rear end so I hit my brakes.

I am not "plotting" anything. I asked a simple question. At what point would it be justified to use deadly force? It really isn't an issue as to what started the incident. I tried to avoid any further escalation but was unsuccessful.

You sound like someone defending a rape suspect by saying the victim shouldn't have dressed sexy**************...

 

[Zigner]

You sound like someone defending a rape suspect by saying the victim shouldn't have dressed sexy**************...

No, it's more like telling the aggressive driver that jabbing the breaks to get someone off your tail is the wrong thing to do.

 

[tranquility]

Oh, but "I started it"? Lets not forget the other driver. Is it also against the law to repeatedly run up on the tail of another vehicle and get as close as one foot to the other vehicle? Is that not reckless driving?

Tailgating is an infraction. We don't know his intent. We do know your intent. And, because of your intentional action,

He over reacted, locked the brakes & almost wrecked.

You were in the wrong. They should have called the police and, if they did that rather than do their other actions, you might have gone to jail that day.

Now their other actions were wrong. Did you have a reasonable fear for your safety? Probably. Enough to kill? Clearly not as of yet, but it is possible if things progressed. However, your stupid actions put you in a bad spot. Yes, stupid. Your actions on that day and your posts show a certain type of aggressive attitude which is not going to look good to a jury or to a DA who is making a charging decision.

quincy gave you the defense of necessity and/or duress. Necessity is, depending on the circumstances often closely related to self-defense. While you would fulfill many of the requirments of the defense, the common law differentiates between those who had no fault in the bringing about of the situation and those that have that fault. Let's look at it this way, say you were driving too fast. Then, because of your speeding you become boxed in in some way have have to choose between hitting a pedistrian or hitting a bridge. Most would say hit the bridge because you were the one at fault for causing the situation. What if you had your family in the car? Where does the necessity lie then?

This is harder because of the volutional acts of the civic gang. Are their acts enough to break the link of causation between your illegal act and theirs? Probably. Except that they did this as a reaction to your act, which causes me pause. Some jurisdictions don't even allow a defense of necessity to a person who was at fault in occasioining or developing the situation.

See the gray area? Maybe not as it seems you want us to justify your bad choices. I'm not so sure you should be carrying a firearm as I'm not sure you will deal with life in an appropriate manner in all circumstances. Aggression and assertion are different things.

The only thing in your favor is that if the civic gang wrote the fourm, we'd answer the same way except to say they should feel lucky the person in the car wasn't carrying a gun.