Exit Signs

[tranquility]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? CA

When is an exit sign required? Actually, is there a time when it is prohibited?

I was taken on a tour of a facility. At one point, there was an exit sign that adheres to all visual requirements placed over a door that required a key to open. Is this allowed?

To me, CFR § 1910.37(a)(3) might suggest that it is not. I know California is more restrictive, but I can't find a regulation precisely on point. My understanding is that a facility puts up such signs to allow people to escape disaster. Here, without a key, a person would be trapped. So, I'd say the sign is not correct. But, my knowledge of building codes and their effect equates to my knowledge of the whichness of why. (I have an opinion, but have no frickin idea.)

Problem or no?

At the end of the day, my purpose is to not be a doofus. I'd bring it up to the powers that be, but don't really have a full grasp of the law on the matter. What say you?

 

[las365]

Is there another exit that doesn't require a key near the one that does? In other words, is the locked exit the only one in the area?

I'm trying to narrow down whether removing or changing the sign over the door in question could alleviate the problem of people trying but being unable to use the door to exit during an emergency, since there is another exit that could be used, or whether the door needs to have a keyless exit. That might influence the way you approach addressing the situation.

You may want to look at the city code (fire codes) for the exit requirements in that area.

 

[HighwayMan]

I've seen plenty of locked exit doors that unlock automatically when a smoke detector or fire alarm activates. Are you sure that's not the case here?

 

[tranquility]

I hesitate to give much more. Suffice to say, that no one will be allowed through the door. It should be considered a wall by the...owner. In fact, those who are one door away are not able to leave on their own without being helped. There is another path nearby that has an emergency door where a person can push on the locking bar and have the door open. There is an adequate exit. Those who work in the facility know the actual exit and the..."guests", really don't have a choice as to if they can leave on their own. Fire or not.

I believe all laws would be complied with if the sign were removed. The reason I'm being careful is not a legal one, but a social one. Sometimes people don't like to be told they should change things they've thought about.

 

[I'mTheFather]

This sounds similar to a 'memory care' facility I visited recently.

 

[TheGeekess]

I hesitate to give much more. Suffice to say, that no one will be allowed through the door. It should be considered a wall by the...owner. In fact, those who are one door away are not able to leave on their own without being helped. There is another path nearby that has an emergency door where a person can push on the locking bar and have the door open. There is an adequate exit. Those who work in the facility know the actual exit and the..."guests", really don't have a choice as to if they can leave on their own. Fire or not.

I believe all laws would be complied with if the sign were removed. The reason I'm being careful is not a legal one, but a social one. Sometimes people don't like to be told they should change things they've thought about.

In a facility like that, the staff know that the doors will have to be unlocked in an emergency and the clients escorted out safely. On the locked hospital ward where I worked, we had exit signs over all the exits, locked or not. Fire code, IIRC. (Different states/municipalities, but the same idea.)

 

[I'mTheFather]

Sometimes people don't like to be told they should change things they've thought about.

Pooh Taoism?

 

[justalayman]

contact your local fire marshal. I can't say I have ever seen OSHA deal with exit signs other than during the construction of a building. Signage requirements are generally controlled by state or local building codes via the fire marshal, when it comes to the general public.


if the door is actually not able to be used as an exit and it may be mistaken as such, it is a requirement a "Not an exit" sign be placed where it would be noticeable.

Suffice to say, that no one will be allowed through the door. It should be considered a wall by the...owner. In fact, those who are one door away are not able to leave on their own without being helped.

that doesn't make a lot of sense. If the doorway is properly considered a path to exit the building, then there is no reason to not put a sign there. If it isn't, then the sign is improper. It is that simple.

as another stated; many doors have automatic releases upon a fire alarm. Unless you are familiar with the fire alarm system in the building, you would not necessarily be able to determine is this door is controlled via such means.


I have no idea what difference the folks one door away have to do with this.

 

[You Are Guilty]

Does CA really have a state-wide fire (or building) code? Wouldn't you be dealing with the local rules?

But for what it's worth, I had a case here on the wrong coast with an access-controlled (read: locked 24/7) hospital ward and they were still required to install the illuminated exit signs over the exit (but-not-for-you-mister) doors, as well as comply with the other sign requirements (size, color, placed on separate circuit, etc). Point being it does not seem to be an isolated incident.

 

[justalayman]

Does CA really have a state-wide fire (or building) code? Wouldn't you be dealing with the local rules?

But for what it's worth, I had a case here on the wrong coast with an access-controlled (read: locked 24/7) hospital ward and they were still required to install the illuminated exit signs over the exit (but-not-for-you-mister) doors, as well as comply with the other sign requirements (size, color, placed on separate circuit, etc). Point being it does not seem to be an isolated incident.

I would have to look but in Indiana and Michigan (states I am much more familiar with), buildings such as this are controlled by state building departments. I actually had a situation where the building was state approved but somehow it was designed with a less than legal fire alarm system. I was constantly told: the state signed off on it so it is accepted as legal by the state. I knew it was very inadequate and quite concerned about it.

I brought in the local fire marshal, who I was told had no authority in the issue and showed him the system. He asked what I would like him to do. I responded, "what can you do?. I'm told you have no authority due to this being a state controlled build"

He said, well, I can send the architect a letter telling him the building will not receive a CO (certificate of occupancy) until there is an adequate fire alarm system in place. I asked if he can "make it stick". He responded with, "yep, absolutely"

Well, a couple weeks later our company received a large "extra" (that is what work above the initial contract is called) to install a proper system.

So, does the state control the build? Yes and no. There is a statewide fire and building code in California. For the most part that is what is utilized throughout the state but each municipality can modify that code. As with most laws, they can increase the obligations but not reduce them.


YAG, by chance was the door controlled by the fire alarm system? I have put latch releases on limited access doors in hospitals that were automatically released in a fire emergency.

 

[tranquility]

To be clear, I don't think there is a violation of anything but the sign. That the door cannot be opened without a key is not a problem.

http://www.dir.ca.gov/title8/3235.html