Motor-Vehicle title issue

[Ultranothing]

Hi.

I searched for the most appropriate Forum in which to post this, so forgive me if there was a more prudent choice that I overlooked.

I live in Connecticut. I purchased a motorcycle (1982 Suzuki) through eBay from a guy in Pennsylvania. I received a title and a bill of sale from that state. The title was filled out and signed by me.

Believing that I was the current title-holder on the motorcycle, I fixed it up and re-sold it to a gentleman in Massachusetts. I never registered the motorcycle in my name. I provided the seller with the title as it was, and the original bill of sale from my initial purchase. We also wrote up a new bill of sale. I dropped off the motorcycle and assumed that the matter was finished.

I receive a call today from the buyers wife, threatening to sue me because they are now in possession of a motorcycle which has no value to them.

I have been instructed by the buyer(s) that I need to drive back to their house in Mass., pick up the bike, drive it back to CT., have it registered in my name, have a new title issued to me, and then drive back to their house with the motorcycle and the new title.

Does that make any sense to anyone?

I spoke with the department of titles at the DMV HQ here in Wethersfield, CT - they told me that I needed to get the title back, bring it to the DMV with my original bill of sale, have a new title created with my name on the face, and then bring THAT title back, because apparently, 3rd party vehicle sales are not allowed in MA.

Crazy! So my questions to you, the experts, are:

A. Does the buyer have justification to sue me for whatever reason(s) she may conjure?

B. Is there possibly a simpler method by which she can use the title I provided, to claim ownership of the vehicle?

I was always told never to leave the title of an automobile in the glove-box with the other paperwork, because possession of that document entitles the possessor to ownership of said automobile. True?

This is all just driving me crazy. I'll provide any additional info for those who may need it. GEESH!

- Josh

[racer72]

You sold a motorcycle you didn't legally own. Possession of a title does not prove ownership. Possession of a title in your name does. Now you know what to do to correct the problem, do as instructed by the DMV.

[Ultranothing]

You're right! Here I was, thinking I legally owned the motorcycle just because I paid for it and had the title signed over to me with a bill of sale. What a FOOL I was!

[Ultranothing]

Originally Posted by racer72

You sold a motorcycle you didn't legally own. Possession of a title does not prove ownership. Possession of a title in your name does. Now you know what to do to correct the problem, do as instructed by the DMV.

Ah, you're editing as I'm responding. The part about "possession of a title does not prove ownership" is the key point! Just because my name and signature is on the BACK of a title, doesn't make it "MY" title until the issuer of titles (the good ol' DMV) RE-issues me a title with my name on the FRONT of said title, having proven that I did indeed legally purchase said vehicle in question.

So that whole thing about not leaving the title in the glove-box because anyone who finds it automatically owns your car - a complete fabrication! MYTH!

[Ultranothing]

Originally Posted by racer72

...do as instructed by the DMV.

Thank you.

[justalayman]

Ultranothing;2334711]Ah, you're editing as I'm responding. The part about "possession of a title does not prove ownership" is the key point! Just because my name and signature is on the BACK of a title, doesn't make it "MY" title until the issuer of titles (the good ol' DMV) RE-issues me a title with my name on the FRONT of said title, having proven that I did indeed legally purchase said vehicle in question.

now you have got it

So that whole thing about not leaving the title in the glove-box because anyone who finds it automatically owns your car - a complete fabrication! MYTH!

what leaving the title in the car does is make it so very easy for a person to forge the owners signature and sell the car so while the description as you write it is a myth, leaving the title in the car is still a dumb idea.

[racer72]

A hobby of mine is collecting titles to cars I would never have a chance to own. I have about 40 of them at this time. I would love to track down the cars and claim they are mine because I have a title. But it doesn't work that way. How many folks have a title to a McLaren F1, a one million dollar car, but don't have the car? I do.

[Ultranothing]

Things have twisted up here a bit.

I am being told that, because the sale occurred in CT, that CT law applies as to what constitutes a legal transfer of ownership, and that the technicalities of MA law are the problem of the buyer...

...My boss, who has worked in the transportation industry for nearly twenty years, has explained to me that filling out form Q1, "Supplemental Assignment of Ownership" and the title as it stands now, constitutes a legal transfer of property.

Or would that just be too easy...

[TheGeekess]

Dude, get them to mail you the title and take that and your original bill of sale to the proper county/state office. It'll take them a couple of weeks to get the title back to you. Sign your title and mail it to them. By the time it all gets cleared up, it'll be too cold to ride a motorbike anyway. You'll win.

[justalayman]

vehicles prior to 1981 manufacture did not have titles in connecticut. Post 81, they have titles. Maybe since he has been doing things for 20 years, he has run across a lot of pre 81 vehicles where this was the proper action. It is no longer the proper action.

so, if you want to transfer the title, simply listen to the DMV and do what they told you.

[Ultranothing]

Well right now, I'm on a nationwide manhunt for the guy whose name appears on the PA title.

I'm told that if I can get the person whose name appears on the title to apply for a duplicate title, I can give that title to my buyer in MA.

Is there a way that I can apply for the duplicate title myself, if I am unable to find the registered title-holder?

I think I mentioned that the notary who notarized the title did so without the buyers name listed. Does that invalidate the title?

And because my name is listed as the purchaser to whom ownership was transferred, can I apply for the duplicate title myself?

[justalayman]

You have now officially confused the hell out of me.

You said the title was already signed (and notorized) by the true title holder. correct?

you have also stated that the buyers portion is filled out with your name, correct?

what is stopping you from siimply sending in the title so it will be transferred into your name as title holder? Then, you would sign off on that title and put the person who is buying the bike in as the buyer so it will get transferred to his name when he sends it in.

the only problem I see, but not sure if applicable:

many states require any vehicle that is being brought into a state and title transferred to that state to undergo a check for stolen vehicles performed by the (often anyway) state police.

Since you bought it with a PA title and you live in Connecticut, you may have to have physical possession of the motorcycle to allow this check.

[Ultranothing]

This is becoming completely ridiculous:

I found the guy whose name appears on the title. He offered to go to his DMV in PA and apply for a duplicate title. I sent him a money order for the price of the filing fee. We had agreed that he would sign the title over to my buyer in MA once he received it. A week has gone by and I haven't even heard from him, except for this past Friday when I asked him if he got the money order; His reply was simply "Yes I got it"...Nothing more! And I've yet to hear back from him!

I am getting screwed every way I turn.

...what is stopping you from siimply sending in the title so it will be transferred into your name as title holder? Then, you would sign off on that title and put the person who is buying the bike in as the buyer so it will get transferred to his name when he sends it in.

Good question, Justalayman! Here's a few questions to answer your question:

In which state would I send in the title? Could I get a PA title even though I live in CT? That's a pretty stupid question, isn't it...

I'm not too sure, but I've heard that CT doesn't allow "Title only" transfers, ie. I can't just bring this title and bill of sale to the CT DMV and ask for a new title in my name. It is one of the most irrational bits of red-tape I've ever had the displeasure of experiencing, but I believe CT requires that I register and insure a vehicle before I can actually "own" it. Even if I never had the intent of driving it, I have to put it on the road before it can officially be "mine".

Maybe it's just me, but I was under the impression that "Title" is transferring ownership, "Registration (and insurance)" is to operate the vehicle. Why is it that, in some states, they don't consider the difference? It's got wheels, but it can't just be considered "property" in my state? What a load of CRAP that is!

Say I had the deed to a house...Would I have to live in it for a month, mow the lawn, and trim the hedges, before I could say the house was really mine?

Here's a few examples of common-sense:

In Tennessee, the law stipulates that "in[...]instances of an owners desiring to apply for a certificate of title without registering the vehicle, a written request outlining the reasons and need will be necessary. Consideration for approval for title without registration may be requested..."

In Nevada, the DMV permits you to title without registering your vehicle. To "title only", you need the title or MSO, a Nevada VIN inspection, and the lease agreement or purchase agreement (if applicable). Sales tax must also be paid in full at the time of titling.

In Delaware they have whats called a "U-title", or Unregistered Title which means that you own the car, but you can't drive it. You pay for the title and tax and that's it. No inspection or insurance is needed.

If I lived in Texas, I could simply fill-out form VTR-131, and apply for a "negotiable certificate of title". The vehicle would (obviously) not be allowed on the streets or highways of the state until it was properly registered...BUT IT WOULD STILL BE MINE!

I'm not trying to overthrow the government, here. I will GLADLY pay whatever CT taxes they wish to charge me! Heck, I'll throw in an extra $20 for good measure.

Do you think that, considering so many other states allow this, I could make a plea to the Atty. General, or the CT DMV department of taxation and driver services?

Dude, get them to mail you the title and take that and your original bill of sale to the proper county/state office. It'll take them a couple of weeks to get the title back to you. Sign your title and mail it to them. By the time it all gets cleared up, it'll be too cold to ride a motorbike anyway. You'll win.

Could you elaborate, Geekess? They've mailed me the title and I have my original bill of sale. What is the "proper county/state office"? Connecticut won't issue me a title of ownership unless I register and insure the car first, which is OUTRAGEOUS! I can prove to them that I paid for the vehicle, but I can't have a document which says so. Do you think there's any loop-holes? Mail it to...whom? Do you think I could apply for a duplicate title from the PA DMV myself, since my name is on the back, I have a bill-of-sale, and the seller whose name appears on the title isn't cooperating?

[justalayman]

I found the guy whose name appears on the title.

I don't know how long it takes in your state but in my state it takes a couple months, easy, to get a new title.

In which state would I send in the title? Could I get a PA title even though I live in CT? That's a pretty stupid question, isn't it...

if the title is transferred to you by the listed owner, you would transfer the title in your state. It will be converted to a title issued from your state.

I'm not too sure, but I've heard that CT doesn't allow "Title only" transfers, ie. I can't just bring this title and bill of sale to the CT DMV and ask for a new title in my name. It is one of the most irrational bits of red-tape I've ever had the displeasure of experiencing, but I believe CT requires that I register and insure a vehicle before I can actually "own" it. Even if I never had the intent of driving it, I have to put it on the road before it can officially be "mine".

makes no sense. You cannot register a vehicle you don't own. I would investigate this. I would think you are mistaken.

Maybe it's just me, but I was under the impression that "Title" is transferring ownership, "Registration (and insurance)" is to operate the vehicle.

yep, you are right.












!

Heck, I'll throw in an extra $20 for good measure.

Oh God, don't do that. You'll cause a meltdown of the state government. They have no idea what to do when something is not printed out in some manual on how to run the government.

Do you think that, considering so many other states allow this, I could make a plea to the Atty. General,

no. not their thing

or the CT DMV department of taxation and driver services?

maybe you can try. I doubt it will do anything but you may gain some important info.

Could you elaborate, Geekess? They've mailed me the title and I have my original bill of sale. What is the "proper county/state office"? Connecticut won't issue me a title of ownership unless I register and insure the car first, which is OUTRAGEOUS!

something just doesn't sound right about that. You cannot register or insure a vehicle that is not yours.

and the seller whose name appears on the title isn't cooperating?

he may be. It may just be taking longer than you expect it to.

I was just cruising the Conn. DMV website and I found nothing about the situation concerning insurance and registration you are speaking of.

[Ultranothing]

The only relevant information I can find is similar to what my boss explained to me. This is the description of the "Q-1" form from the CT DMV website:

"Q-1 - Refers to a supplemental assignment of ownership form. The Q-1 is used when the back of the title is already completed and the vehicle still requires a transfer of ownership or can be used as a bill of sale. "

It doesn't explain about using the Q-1 form to transfer ownership to an out-of-state party. Something else I've come across recently is called "In-Transit Registration" which is explained like this:

"In-Transit Registrations

The In-Transit Registration is a special use registration. It is used only for vehicles which are purchased in the state of Connecticut by an out of state resident and will be driven to another state for registration. In-Transit registrations can be used whether the applicant purchased the vehicle from a dealer or an individual.

An In-Transit Registration will not be accepted for vehicle inspection at any Connecticut DMV and cannot be renewed or transferred. The expiration date will be no more than 30 calendar days from the issue date.

An In-Transit Registration can be obtained at any full service DMV branch office . The following is the required documentation needed in order to obtain an In-Transit Registration:

* Properly assigned Certificate of Origin or Title, Bill of Sale (form H-31), or Supplemental Assignment of Ownership and/or Bill of Sale (form Q-1), if applicable. The purchaser's out of state address is required on the ownership assignment. A Federal Odometer statement is also required if the vehicle was purchased from a licensed dealer or repairer.
* A current Insurance Identification Card, which can be obtained from your insurance company. The insurance card must be in the name of the registered owner (purchaser) of vehicle. If vehicle is being leased, the insurance card may be in the name of the lessee. An out of state insurance card or declaration page will be accepted as long as it meets or exceeds CT minimum liability insurance limits and lists the vehicle being registered. States which do not meet CT minimum limits are: Arizona, California, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Nevada, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Louisiana, Massachusetts. For these states the declaration page of the insurance policy would be required to verify insurance coverage amounts. Connecticut's minimum mandatory insurance limits are $20,000 personal injury per person, $40,000 personal injury per accident, and $10,000 property damage.
* Complete an Application for Registration and Certificate of Title (form H-13). The out of state address is required.
* Out of State Driver's License (address must agree with address on application).
* Fee of $20."

It hasn't been easy for me to fit this description in with my current predicament, but, well, that's why I'm here

I'm still researching this, two weeks later...kill me.