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inadequate porch lighting 2nd try problem with first post

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joe468

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? CA

So I was saying Luckily that has NOT happened to us but that I was having conversation with members of my house regarding putting up a porch light that we can turn on or off as we please rather than the motion detector light that we have now and use when we know someone is coming over to visit or if one of us in the family is going to be coming home after dark.
I was wondering if in the evening time we do not have the motion detector light on and a neighbor comes over UNANNOUNCED and UNINVITED and they hurt themselves coming up the steps (that is decor free and clear of any debris) and up onto our porch and they get hurt coming up the stairs who would be held responsible?

Thanks in advance
 


quincy

Senior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? CA

So I was saying Luckily that has NOT happened to us but that I was having conversation with members of my house regarding putting up a porch light that we can turn on or off as we please rather than the motion detector light that we have now and use when we know someone is coming over to visit or if one of us in the family is going to be coming home after dark.
I was wondering if in the evening time we do not have the motion detector light on and a neighbor comes over UNANNOUNCED and UNINVITED and they hurt themselves coming up the steps (that is decor free and clear of any debris) and up onto our porch and they get hurt coming up the stairs who would be held responsible?

Thanks in advance
You can be held responsible for injuries that occur on your property, including injuries occurring in those who are on your property uninvited and unannounced. Your homeowner's insurance should cover this type of injury.

Is there any reason why you want to disconnect your motion detector lights? I know that they can oftentimes be an annoyance when they capture the motion of nighttime critters like raccoons and skunks.
 

joe468

Junior Member
Thank you for your answer.Apparently I was wrong in this instance. I figured we wouldn't be responsible.Nope no reason to disconnect motion detector light.We just use it on certain circumstances.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
I have to disagree with ya quincy. the jury instructions:

A person who [owns/leases/occupies/controls] property is negligent if he or she fails to use reasonable care to keep the property in a reasonably safe condition. A person who [owns/leases/occupies/ controls] property must use reasonable care to discover any unsafe conditions and to repair, replace, or give adequate warning of anything that could be reasonably expected to harm others.
In deciding whether [name of defendant] used reasonable care, you may consider, among other factors, the following:
(a) The location of the property;
(b) The likelihood that someone would come on to the property in the same manner as [name of plaintiff] did;
(c) The likelihood of harm;
(d) The probable seriousness of such harm;
(e) Whether [name of defendant] knew or should have known of the condition that created the risk of harm;
(f) The difficulty of protecting against the risk of such harm; [and]
(g) The extent of [name of defendant]’s control over the condition that created the risk of harm; [and]
(h) [Other relevant factor(s).]
while California is apparently removing the differentiation of levels of duty a landowner has to a trespasser, invitee, or licensee, it still requires negligence of the landowner to be liable for injuries.

as long as there are no obvious safety hazards, the landowner has fulfilled their obligation. They do not have to take action to ensure a person is not injured but simply must take reasonable care to maintain the property in a reasonably safe condition. No light is a natural condition. I cannot see the courts requiring a person provide lighting to ensure a person's safety as long as the property is free from any reasonably discoverable unsafe conditions.

Additionally, there are times I prefer to not have the light come on when there are "visitors". Blinds the night vision scopes!!!:eek:
 

ecmst12

Senior Member
Homeowners insurance will still cover any medical bills for injuries on the property under the medical payments to others coverage, which is no-fault.
 

quincy

Senior Member
I have to disagree with ya quincy. the jury instructions:



while California is apparently removing the differentiation of levels of duty a landowner has to a trespasser, invitee, or licensee, it still requires negligence of the landowner to be liable for injuries.

as long as there are no obvious safety hazards, the landowner has fulfilled their obligation. They do not have to take action to ensure a person is not injured but simply must take reasonable care to maintain the property in a reasonably safe condition. No light is a natural condition. I cannot see the courts requiring a person provide lighting to ensure a person's safety as long as the property is free from any reasonably discoverable unsafe conditions.

Additionally, there are times I prefer to not have the light come on when there are "visitors". Blinds the night vision scopes!!!:eek:
You are more than welcome to disagree with me, justalayman. However ;) . . . .

Consider this scenario (and I will try to provide case law when I have the opportunity): A UPS delivery person arrives at joe's home after dark, uninvited and unannounced. joe was unaware he was getting a delivery, his porch and steps were dark, and the UPS delivery person trips on the stairs and injures his leg.

Can the unlit porch and stairs be considered unsafe? Who is held liable for the delivery person's injury?
 

justalayman

Senior Member
Can the unlit porch and stairs be considered unsafe?
I do not believe so. There is no duty to take extraordinary actions to ensure a visitors safety. Since it get's dark every night, requiring a person provide lighting would be an extraordinary action. The law requires the owner take reasonable actions to keep the property in a reasonably safe condition and only a failure of such duty would impart culpability and liability on the home owner. If the stairs are otherwise safe, lighting or lack of it does not change that.




Who is held liable for the delivery person's injury?
depends on whether it is an independent contractor dba UPS, an employee of an independent contractor dba UPS, or it is actually a UPS employee.;)


Oh, and while I believe you tried to sneak in the argument the UPS driver was a licensee, since California appears to be discarding the separations previously accepted pretty much universally, it doesn't make any difference.
 
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quincy

Senior Member
I do not believe so. There is no duty to take extraordinary actions to ensure a visitors safety. Since it get's dark every night, requiring a person provide lighting would be an extraordinary action. The law requires the owner take reasonable actions to keep the property in a reasonably safe condition and only a failure of such duty would impart culpability and liability on the home owner. If the stairs are otherwise safe, lighting or lack of it does not change that.
Actually, it depends on all facts but joe could be held liable. If deliveries by UPS are frequent, like they might be during the holiday season, a property owner should anticipate deliveries and should probably make sure the porch is well-lit. Under these circumstances, that could be considered ordinary care.

The same could be said for Halloween, when there is a likelihood that trick-or-treaters will be visiting the property, uninvited and unannounced but expected nonetheless.

A property owner can even be held liable for injuries incurred by trespassers under some circumstances, especially if the trespassers are children.

But again, and as ecmst said, your homeowner's insurance should cover injuries incurred by others on your property. And again, it really depends on the facts present at the time of injury.

depends on whether it is an independent contractor dba UPS, an employee of an independent contractor dba UPS, or it is actually a UPS employee.;)[/URL]
Possibly. :)

Oh, and while I believe you tried to sneak in the argument the UPS driver was a licensee, since California appears to be discarding the separations previously accepted pretty much universally, it doesn't make any difference.
Cal Civil Code Section 1714 says: "Everyone is responsible, not only for the result of his willful acts, but also for an injury occasioned to another by his want of ordinary care or skill in the management of his property or person, except so far as the latter has, willfully or by want of ordinary care, brought the injury upon himself."

The best case out of California to review could be Rowland v Christian, 69 Cal 2d 108, 443 P.2d 561, Sup Ct Cal, 1968 (I believe it is still good law). It can be accessed at http://www.stanford.edu/group/psylawseminar/Rowland.htm.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
The same could be said for Halloween, when there is a likelihood that trick-or-treaters will be visiting the property, uninvited and unannounced but expected nonetheless.
so, our local gov is setting up people to be sued? You know, the "if you do not wish to participate in trick or treat, turn off your porch light" statement the make every year?

maybe they get a cut...


OH GOD, I just realized. They are creating legal actions so as to provide more judges with work!!!!!


A property owner can even be held liable for injuries incurred by trespassers under some circumstances, especially if the trespassers are children.
sure, in some situations although I disagree with holding a landowner liable for any injury sustained by a trespasser other than one that was intentional on the part of the land owner.

to the children:. Attractive nuisances. Need I say more?








Cal Civil Code Section 1714 says: "Everyone is responsible, not only for the result of his willful acts, but also for an injury occasioned to another by his want of ordinary care or skill in the management of his property or person, except so far as the latter has, willfully or by want of ordinary care, brought the injury upon himself."
and that is based on how ordinary care is defined.

as well, realizing there are steps and the visitor has not exercised ordinary care if he could not see the steps adequately and failed to locate and use a flashlight would be negligence on the part of the UPS driver or Joe's neighbor.

The best case out of California to review could be Rowland v Christian, 69 Cal 2d 108, 443 P.2d 561, Sup Ct Cal, 1968 (I believe it is still good law). It can be accessed at http://www.stanford.edu/group/psylawseminar/Rowland.htm
that is very different than not turning on a light. The faucet was actually defective, it was known to be defective by the defendant, and due to the defect, the plaintiff was injured. There is nothing defective with a light that is turned off.


but even with that great difference, the case speaks to the issue in general here:

Although the invitor owes the invitee a duty to exercise ordinary care to avoid injuring him (Oettinger v. Stewart, supra, 24 Cal.2d 133, 137; Hinds v. Wheadon, 19 Cal.2d 458, 460-461 [121 P.2d 724]), the general rule is that a trespasser and licensee or social guest are obliged to take the premises as they find them insofar as any alleged defective condition thereon may exist, and that the possessor of the land owes them only the duty of refraining from wanton or willful injury. (Palmquist v. Mercer, 43 Cal.2d 92, 102 [272 P.2d 26]; see Oettinger v. Stewart, supra, 24 Cal.2d 133, 137 et seq.) The ordinary justification for the general rule severely restricting the occupier's liability to social guests is based on the theory that the guest should not expect special precautions to be made on his account and that if the host does not inspect and maintain his property the guest should not expect this to be done on his account. (See 2 Harper and James, The Law of Torts, supra, p. 1477.)
UPS would be an invitee and as such, is due ordinary care to avoid injuring him (do you take the statement of: exercise ordinary care to avoid injuring him, to be different than: preventing him from being injured? If taken literally, as long as one does not cause injury to the invitee, it would fulfill the duty imposed:eek:)

so, we need a definition of: ordinary care






Here they speak of active negligence. In each of the citations, there was an obvious danger that the defendant was charged with failing to remedy or adequately warn of. :

large number of people in a pool could reasonably be seen to be a danger
grease on a floor
water on the floor of the bathroom

Do you see a properly constructed stair with a properly constructed handrail as an obvious danger? Would one be required to notify all visitors of the stairs, whether it be daylight or dark?




Thus in Hansen v. Richey, 237 Cal.App.2d 475, 481 [46 Cal.Rptr. 909], an action for wrongful death of a drowned youth, the court held that liability could be predicated not upon the maintenance of a dangerous swimming pool but upon negligence "in the active conduct of a party for a large number of youthful guests in the light of knowledge of the dangerous pool." fn. 1 In Howard v. Howard, 186 Cal.App.2d [69 Cal.2d 115] 622, 625 [9 Cal.Rptr. 311], where plaintiff was injured by slipping on spilled grease, active negligence was found on the ground that the defendant requested the plaintiff to enter the kitchen by a route which he knew would be dangerous and defective and that the defendant failed to warn her of the dangerous condition. (Cf. Anderson v. Anderson, 251 Cal.App.2d 409, 413 [59 Cal.Rptr. 342]; Herold v. P. H. Mathews Paint House, 39 Cal.App. 489, 493-494 [179 P. 414].) In Newman v. Fox West Coast Theatres, 86 Cal.App.2d 428, 431-433 [194 P.2d 706], the plaintiff suffered injuries when she slipped and fell on a dirty washroom floor, and active negligence was found on the ground that there was no water or foreign substances on the washroom floor when plaintiff entered the theater, that the manager of the theater was aware that a dangerous condition was created after plaintiff's entry, that the manager had time to clean up the condition after learning of it, and that he did not do so or warn plaintiff of the condition.

let me summarize this:

your argument is that if a person fails to provide either a motion activated light, dusk to dawn lighting, or 24/7 lighting of their stairs they are negligent. I'm just not buying it.

So, what happens if the UPS driver is blind? Do you have actually provide an escort for them to avoid them being injured on your stairs (since obviously turning on the light won't do no damn good)

Personal responsibility. That's the answer. If you can't see the steps, don't use them or get a flashlight. If you do anything else, you are taking the risk upon yourself. It's called; common sense.
 

quincy

Senior Member
... your argument is that if a person fails to provide either a motion activated light, dusk to dawn lighting, or 24/7 lighting of their stairs they are negligent. I'm just not buying it. ...
Actually, my argument is that joe can be held liable for injuries that occur on his property, whether those injured on his property are invited guests or are uninvited and unannounced visitors (and this includes trespassers).

Re-read my posts and, just for the heck of it, re-read the jury instructions you posted.

If someone is injured on joe's porch or his steps because the porch and steps are unlit and, when unlit, they become difficult to navigate, the injured party can seek to recover from joe any medical expenses incurred. Whether joe will be found liable for these expenses will depend on all facts.

But, the bottom line is that all property owners need to take reasonable measures to make sure visitors to their property are not harmed. If a visitor is harmed, the visitor can seek compensatory damages from the property owner. The property owner can be held responsible for the injuries.


Edit to add: I wanted to provide some California premises liability cases involving inadequate lighting. Attorney Matthew B. Tozer has compiled an excellent list of pertinent cases that can be found through the following link. I have no connection to this attorney or the website and provide the link for informational purposes only:

http://www.christian-attorney.net/lighting_inadequate_insufficient_darkness_unfamiliar_negligence_california.html
 
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joe468

Junior Member
Sorry I haven't responded more to this conversation (as I don't get notifications that there were replies to it.) I don't know how much input I would have anyway since I don't know the laws involved.But it seems I started a passionate back and forth from those replying.

quincy:If someone is injured on joe's porch or his steps because the porch and steps are unlit and, when unlit, they become difficult to navigate.

I guess I could add .... we do have natural moon light so its not completely dark. I can't see someone not at least seeing there are steps there and where to step(in normal circumstances) unless they are hard of seeing. I don't know if adding the "natural moonlight" comment changes the conversation at all or if its a "why didn't you mention that in the original post" lol.

The conversation is coming out more interesting than I would have imagined.
Thank you all that replied.
 

quincy

Senior Member
Sorry I haven't responded more to this conversation (as I don't get notifications that there were replies to it.) I don't know how much input I would have anyway since I don't know the laws involved.But it seems I started a passionate back and forth from those replying.

quincy:If someone is injured on joe's porch or his steps because the porch and steps are unlit and, when unlit, they become difficult to navigate.

I guess I could add .... we do have natural moon light so its not completely dark. I can't see someone not at least seeing there are steps there and where to step(in normal circumstances) unless they are hard of seeing. I don't know if adding the "natural moonlight" comment changes the conversation at all or if its a "why didn't you mention that in the original post" lol.

The conversation is coming out more interesting than I would have imagined.
Thank you all that replied.
Natural moonlight could be a mitigating factor in your favor, joe, if someone were to trip and fall on your porch steps and decide to sue you to recover their medical costs.

I want to make it clear, though, that I am not saying with my posts that you WILL be sued, or would LOSE a suit, should an unannounced or uninvited guest make their way to your home some night and trip on your darkened stairs or porch. I am saying that the possibility exists that you COULD be sued.

All facts need to be considered in the event such an occurrence were to happen. There are laws and case law that could support either you in defending against a suit or that could support any individual that files a suit against you. How a court decides the matter remains a question mark until specific facts are presented for review.
 

tranquility

Senior Member
While California is considered a "pure negligence" state in regards to land owner issues, the duties are still much based on common law principles. There the duty for an uninvited person (who is not an unknown but an anticipated trespasser) might be between to warn or make safe latent dangers to warning of deadly conditions that are latent.

Since "dark" is pretty obvious, I don't think there needs to be special lighting for a residence unless there is some other odd condition like a hole in the stairs or something.

Info edit:
The cases on the page quincy listed tended to deal with invitees over licensees or anticipated trespassers.
 
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quincy

Senior Member
Info edit:
The cases on the page quincy listed tended to deal with invitees over licensees or anticipated trespassers.
The cases cited seemed to run the gamut. There was a case or two that dealt with stairs that were, themselves, in fine condition but colored so as to make them difficult to discern in dim or no light.

I still maintain that a lawsuit is possible against a residential property owner were someone to trip and fall on an unlit porch or unlit porch steps - in fact, I suspect there would be an attempt made by the injured to recover his/her costs. But whether outdoor lighting is essential in joe's described situation, to protect him from losing a legal action should there be a trip and fall due to inadequate lighting, is something I can only guess at.
 

tranquility

Senior Member
The cases cited seemed to run the gamut. There was a case or two that dealt with stairs that were, themselves, in fine condition but colored so as to make them difficult to discern in dim or no light.

I still maintain that a lawsuit is possible against a residential property owner were someone to trip and fall on an unlit porch or unlit porch steps - in fact, I suspect there would be an attempt made by the injured to recover his/her costs. But whether outdoor lighting is essential in joe's described situation, to protect him from losing a legal action should there be a trip and fall due to inadequate lighting, is something I can only guess at.
I don't think you're reading them with a knowledgeable eye. Which ones do you mean specifically? The key is latent danger. The victim does not know of the presence of a dangerous condition or that they were protected by the higher duty owed to an invitee.

Anyone can be sued. The vast majority of negligence cases having to do with inadequate lighting are because of attacks on people who are on a premises because of the value to the owner. (Store, parking lot, apartment building.) They do not deal with hurting yourself because it is dark.

There is no case having to do with liability for a person not turning on their porch light I can find. When does such a duty end? 10pm? Midnight? Must all people keep their porch light on if there is any chance of someone tripping? If our hypothetical UPS guy does not know to be careful climbing up the stairs at night, I don't see there being too much of a risk of liability to the landowner if he falls.
 

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