"love and affection" Can title be conveyed back & forth for it? Culture problem too.

[realitytest]

We live in PA (sons and me); the land is in South Carolina.

We (the two sons are joint tenants with right of survivorship) want the deed to be in my name, and we hope this can be arranged with minimal expense - though, of course, above-board. If possible, we'd like it re-transfer in the future during my lifetime. If the re-transfer won't work, than we would like it bequeathed to them in my will or in some Trust instrument (preferable) - not sure which.

I'm having a LOT of trouble getting information about this issue, partly if not entirely because of the difference in locale and the - well, difference of "culture". I've talked to PA R.E. attorneys and one R.E. attorney in the small SC town near this 350 acre farmland. It seems everything has to be done by a SC attorney. Too bad as the PA atty had lots of creative suggestions while the SC atty just blew me off and seemed annoyed at my inquiries.

Our goals are to redress a glaring (though generous) error made by my mother - how typical! She gifted them this property - family owned for 100+ years - despite my requests that she please express her generosity to them differently. At issue is college financial aid.

Rule #1 for college financial planning is NOT to put assets into the kid's name as student assets are assessed at 35% a year while parental assets are "only" charged 6% towards the EFC (and sometimes not even. Hopefully not for me).

We are not rich. In fact , I am disabled and poor. Were it not for this land my son would qualify for substantial financial aid at an elite college such as his record qualifies him for.

He is very brilliant in a highly specialized branch of computer science, and really can't use just any U as a jumping off point. Besides, with their various packages, the Ivies often work out to be cheaper than State Schools...And (another "besides") - I don't have any money at all to help. I'm barely scraping by. I can only contribute thinking, research and writing to you all!

In fact, one fear I have is that in my name, this land could be forfeited to the State (spent down) if I have to go into nursing care. Hope not! Sons understand this risk which I estimate at no greater than one in four depending on how I can retrofit my house and medical issues.

Their father who is well situated, will NOT help them. Period. End of topic. Let's not go there.

The good news is that University AID committees are surprisingly open to hearing about extenuating circumstances these days - it's not all by computer like it used to be. However, this asset is too extenuating. Just because a stubborn grandmother screwed her grandson's dream education (especially when there are so little family assets to go around)....that's too much to ask them to "understand". They're not family counselors!

That's especially since I'm asking them to ignore the skinflint dad, my disability and my lack of sheltered retirement income (thereby already asking them to discount or ignore my EFC).

My mother should have given it to me in a lifetime trust with them as beneficiaries or something else - almost anything else. I would have used it for their benefit unless I was on my deathbed anyhow.

We would consider a mortgage or any deed of conveyance. My first cousin who's been farming/renting the land (for $5K/year) has long been interested in purchasing it. Thought of a possible owner financed mortgage (if I understand the term) or something even better for our purposes. (Liquid assets are even more NOT OK, than the land tho) If so we'd pay the Uni half the mortgage interest or whatever they require - depends on who owns it, sons or me. If the mortgage translates to an asset the same as the land, then I'd have to hold it tho.

The main thing is that it NOT be in the applicant's name. Fast. By the end of this fiscal year (the "Base year"). It's OK if it's in mine - we'll just cross our fingers and I'll write a good letter to his top choice schools (with medical and other documentation).

BTW one new area of flexibility at top schools today - much appreciated - is that if one parent (usually the father, face it) is unwilling to contribute info, money or both, they will discount his income and assets! To do this they require reliable third party confirmation of the fact - clergyperson, lawyer (!), counselor etc. Proving that is no problem for us!!

FWIW if I can somehow qualify to file a 1040A my assets will be not counted anyhow (getting $300/mo from a little trust will probably trash that bright idea, right?)

BTW I delayed until late to investigate this to insure my son was going to keep up his grades, older son would remain willing to cosign, etc. as this will raise a STORM with my 84 yr old mother, who is not really all there (may disown me). No sense in getting everyone excited over nothing. Besides, the applicant just turned eighteen (last week) and the deed stipulates the land cannot be sold until then.

S.C lawyer I was referred to, was very abrupt, even rude. True, he wouldn't charge me for our brief phone consult (after ascertaining who my grand-daddy was. etc. ), but he was NO help, Just advised we needed both sons to be on the same page about transfer owing to joint tenancy. Click! Maybe he thinks slick Yankee is trying to cheat the govt., or Mama, or being disloyal to family land or...?

The deed reads (he quoted), "sold for $5, love and affection". Can I get my sons to convey it to me for $10 (inflation ) "And love and affection"? Then back again on the same terms? What does this mean anyhow, in terms of gift tax, RE tax ... everything we care about now??

At the very least we need a good lawyer of our own to advise us, think of options etc. Anyone know of any in rural S.C near N.C. border?? Someone sharp, clever, but not shady and - how can I say this? - able to talk Yankee. (I tried to be on my best behavior and it just didn't work, for some reason. ) And not so laid back this can't get done in time...

My poor son is cracking up from stress with applications and all. Goes from saying, it's HIS land and he'll sell it for Hershey bars if he wants to dammit! - to a deep sigh, and "...why bother? All this work is for nothing anyhow" I'lll add the obvious in conclusion, we'd REALLY rather not just spend down the land for uni expenses as it would leave him with nothing. In fact, he'd be in debt before even hitting grad school.

With so few family resources, it's a terrible shame to just blow his whole future security this way. Mine too to an extent as he has said he wants to help me if he can. And - might as well add it - the older son is disabled too, mentally. That land is all we - my family - have in this Deficit shadowed world. It would be nice to keep owning it, too if possible (ha!) I DO have family feeling, but education and security come first. (Total estimated present value abt $400K - and when acquired less than $300K)

(SO sorry for length. Did anyone get this far??)

[PghREA]

I didn't read through the whole explaination. My advice is to find another SC attorney, one who deals with real estate matters.

[nextwife]

Would you please repost the REAL ESTATE question that is burried in all that, leaving out all tbhe non-real estate issues

[IndianaOwner]

First, focus on what you want done. All of this collateral stuff is not helpful. No wonder an attorney isn't readily willing to deal with you...regardless of whatever the heck being "yankee" means...(I must be a yankee since I have no clue I guess).

Second, it really isn't that complicated. Just have the two sons quitclaim their interests to you. Then you will own it 100% if only you three were on the deed. If the two sons want to put back on the deed latter, then that is up to you... What you are sorta wanting to do though is "hide assets" from the financial aid people, that may not be allowed...I don't know what the rules are.

Thank you for "not going there" regarding your sons' father********************************************************......

[tranquility]

I know little about such things, bu I'm assuming many of the scholarship packages are based on need. Because of this gift of land, your son no longer has the level of need to get the amounts he seeks. You want to find some mechanism to get the asset out of the needs consideration without getting rid of the asset. Right?

I don't think a property attorney is the right way to go right now. You need to see someone who specalizes in scholarships as there may be lookback and transfer for value issues. I know some CPA's do it and assume there are other professionals who can advise you. Expect to pay for their advice.

One other suggestion, spend down the asset on college costs. Once you get to the level where your son qualifies for scholarships, apply for them. In other words, use the wealth your son has to pay for the services he desires.

[realitytest]

First of all, let me explain to all you kind enough to reply even if you didn’t slog through the whole deal, that I included so many details because I respect the accumulated wisdom here and the opportunity to tap it. I was afraid that without the total context (and I don’t mean going back to Eve and the apple) I would inevitably get answers that didn’t pertain.

PhREA:

This WAS a SC R.E. lawyer!

nextwife: see below to Indiana Owner.

Indiana Owner: The collateral issues as you call them are necessary to get a helpful response. They define our goals. I guess there is more than one way to transfer titles in SC, right? Different costs, time frames, consequences… Look good buddies and respected counselors, I don’t know a gift tax from a habeas corpus! Help!

One purpose in giving context was to screen out irrelevant answers. I think I was clear. It’s the length (and boringness) that may have obscured some info to hasty readers. For example, MY NAME IS NOT ON THE DEED. Only my sons.

No, I don’t want to hide assets from the AID committee, I want them titled (transferred) as they should have been in the first place to protect family interests and my son’s resources. This is SOP in college $ planning. Rule #1: assets for the benefit of the child, must be placed in the parents’ name to conserve family wealth – in our case, reduce poverty.

Anyone who has dealt with this as a parent, will instantly know what I’m referring to and wince on my behalf.

My mother will be very unhappy if the land is sold for her grandson’s college education – especially in a speedy liquidation to raise cash. It was not her goal. Her goal was to help them by providing security and a family connection..

It should have been done through their parent especially considering our overall situation.

And FWIW, no she didn’t do it this way because she doesn’t trust me.. She did it because she’s stubborn, can’t listen, and was fun. But then this is the woman who added an expensive bathroom in a needed passageway in her last house (against my advice) and then sure enough, had to subtract it again for sale. This is the kind of thing that is making her broke now. The farm titling is the same.

I should have sent her to talk to a financial planner to explain the facts of life to her (but she wouldn’t have listened). Her last words to me about the farm were, “Better take it now before I change my mind!” (said with menace). What could I say, after warning her? I accepted on behalf of my kids figuring it was better than nothing and maybe we’d find way out in time. (Harvard BTW didn’t count the land when I explained – but that was a one time deal.)

If we can’t remedy her mistake, she will be oh-so-sorry when my son sells the land to fulfill his life dreams - as is his right and backup plan. And being eighteen, he can implement it! And that’s not even speaking of her regret when and if the older one who is M,I, gets his hands on the cash value! Think MAUI, cars and video games to start.).

BTW I have no problem getting along with lawyers (although fortunately I’ve had little to do with them- professionally, I mean). In fact, it was a clever lawyer who suggested I begin with a written statement of our situation (whatever the issue, especially if there is a chronology) to save him time and me money.

This is dull on an online forum essentially for chat and simple questions. I apologize but this is my consultation issue. I guess it was too involved. Here are our goals including time frame (and why). Can they be achieved and what are our options? Then too (as asides) are there any special considerations on account of locales? (I imagine RE law is very different state to state, maybe even county to county).

And can we meet out time constraint? (Otherwise, why bother – at least, in a rush?)

I observe that the land was originally conveyed for “love and affection” (per deed). I wonder if this means land in SC can be transferred without paying transfer tax or other taxes, between close family members. How does one appraise “love and affection” (or the capital gains or loss thereon )?

If so, can we move it back and forth for the same “price”?

Not everything can be condensed to “Do I have the right to eat apples from the branches of my neighbor’s trees hanging over my property?!”

PS serenity. Excellent idea about the CPA. Have an appointment with one next week, I also really need to talk to a Wills and Estates etc atty (e.g. asset protection) even though that’s trying to close the barn door while the horse is half out. We still need to know about SC RE law, tho’.