For Sale sign posting in the wrong yard

[pdw8000]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? WA

What recourse do I have to recover lost rental income. A large 'For Sale' sign was posted in my front yard in front of my 'For Rent' sign. I t made it appear as though my house was for rent while trying to sell it. Removing the sign just made it appear as though I took the house off the market until the market improves. There are many houses for sale in the area and no one wants to rent when they believe that the home will be sold and their kids are in school.

All previous tenants rented because of the Mercer Island schools. The Mercer Island School District is one of the top districts in the country and once school starts the market cools until well after the holidays.

The house for sale is blocks away and the sign had nothing to do with my property. Most interest and calls are generated by the 'for rent' sign posted in my yard. A sign was posted for approximately 10 days in mid-August during which time I had one call where the caller mentioned that she wanted details on the property but that she noticed that the house was now for sale. I told her that it was not and had not been since the property was last purchased. She mentioned a sign and I thought that she was referring to a small wire ground sign posted on the corner of my lot in the easement by the stop sign. The sign was actually a large post with a hanging sign well into the front yard (no where close to the edge of the property!) and clearly indicated the THIS HOUSE WAS FOR SALE!!!! There was no mistaking which property it was referring to. Prior to the sign I received 2-3 calls per day. The mortgage payments are huge and must be covered completely while unrented.

Thanks for any help that you can provide!What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?

 

[justalayman]

how much in loss can you prove, to the courts, the sign caused?

since the sign was posted in your front yard, how did you miss the sign for 10 days?

Your justification:

There are many houses for sale in the area and no one wants to rent when they believe that the home will be sold and their kids are in school.

Makes absolutely no sense. A lease continues on regardless of the house being sold so nobody with a lease at least as long as the school year would be moving during the school year.

Bottom line; you will not be able to prove your loss PLUS unless you can prove the sign was intentionally placed to cause you such losses, you really have no claim against a mistake.

The sign was actually a large post with a hanging sign well into the front yard (no where close to the edge of the property!)

this statement sounds like the sign post was not actually in your yard yet the banner portion was yet you state this was nowhere close to the edge of the property.

Mind explaining that a bit?

 

[las365]

since the sign was posted in your front yard, how did you miss the sign for 10 days?

I think this is a rental property that OP does not live in.

 

[pdw8000]

Thanks for the quick reply! To answer your questions.

1 - The rental is currently vacant. I stop by about once to twice a week when I show the home. I do a complete walk through of the house and yard to make certain that everything is as it should be. The showings dropped off when the sign was posted in front of the for rent sign. I took pictures of the sign(s).

2 - When I say that it was no where near the edge of the property, I mean that the house is on a corner lot with a stop sign at the edge. It is not unusual to see small directional real estate signs by the stop sign and ordinarily, I do not object and would wish the neighbors all the best with their sale. This was a large post that was sunk into the ground with a very large suspended sign that was IN the yard well into the property and no where near the edge or border of the property or any easements. It was in front of the house and actually placed in front of the 'for rent' sign.

Because I had not had a showing during the week, I went over to the house Saturday morning (8:00ish) to mow the lawn and do my usual check. As soon as I saw the sign, I called the realtor and the agent listed and told them about the situation (Saturday is usually a very busy day with people on the island driving, biking and visiting and I usually get several calls) The realtor said that the sign would be removed. I was unable to budge the sign - it was driven into the ground. Friends came by at about 6pm and were able to knock it over so that it was not so visible and eventually the realtor came and collected the sign.

3 - There is not a large supply of house rentals on the island. There are MANY condos and apartments but if you want a yard for pets, kids, etc.not many. When houses are available they tend to rent for long periods but once school starts rentals drop off drastically until after the holidays to early Spring when people begin looking for the NEXT school year.

There are a lot of retirees, families with kids in the schools system and people looking for convience to both Bellevue and Seattle on the island. Many retirees have their own homes, many communters rent a condo or apartment which are at the north end of the island close the the freeway and buslines. That leaves primarily families, people with pets , some commuters and a few who wish to share homes (this is a 4 bedroom home).

4 - The term of the lease is good but there is no guarantee that you will find another house on the island at an affordable price once the lease is up and chances are, if the house is sold, you will be moving again. Prior to the sign there really had less competition because the house was not for sale unlike most of those in my lease price range. Now the perception is that this home is similar to the others that are short term rentals while awating a sale. There is no perceived advantage to renting this house over any other because it clearly indicated that the house was for rent while up for sale. Because houses are not moving many are taken off the market and are being rented until Spring when they expect the market to improve in this area.

Are you familiar with the Seattle/Mercer Island area? I believe that the rental statistics support my case. I am not seeking PLUS only the lease payment until I find a renter. Heck, THEY could find a renter. I just want it leased to someone who can make the lease payment and will take care of the property.

Thanks again!

 

[justalayman]

4 - The term of the lease is good but there is no guarantee that you will find another house on the island at an affordable price once the lease is up and chances are, if the house is sold, you will be moving again.

that is a problem ever time a lease expires. I see no reason this would be any different here.

Now the perception is that this home is similar to the others that are short term rentals while awating a sale.

whose perception. Obviously it is yours but unless you can substantiate that it has devalued the property, it still means nothing.

Because houses are not moving many are taken off the market and are being rented until Spring when they expect the market to improve in this area.

then it would draw interest to yours. Maybe you ought to send them a couple bucks.

Are you familiar with the Seattle/Mercer Island area?

Nope and it is irrelevent.

I believe that the rental statistics support my case.

statistics for what? You are going to have to prove that you lost something, anything before anybody will even care. On top of that, again, unless this was intentional, you are not going to get anywhere anyway. Accidents do happen.

I am not seeking PLUS only the lease payment until I find a renter. Heck, THEY could find a renter. I just want it leased to someone who can make the lease payment and will take care of the property.

I doubt they would have any interest in doing it for free but if you believe you have such a strong action against them, maybe you can try to negotiate their assistance in finding a lesee

 

[pdw8000]

Obviously my writing is not clear enough.

1 - I know that accidents happen, that is why we carry liability insurance on our vehicles. However, if we cause an accident, we are responsible and pay for repairs and any damage caused, likewise, drivers of our vehicles that cause an accident create a liability for the owner of the vehicle. Why would this be any different?

2 - After reading the response, I now realize that PLUS refers to attorney fees - I am not an attorney and thought that this meant additional compensation. I am not attempting to obtain anything from the realtor other than lease payments until the house is leased. Or THEY can find a tenant and explain the situation that they created. It is not the attorney that I would expect to work for free. Neither would I expect the attorney to find a renter but rather the broker that posted the sign.

3 - The loss is the amount of the lease receipts. Phone records support that the calls stopped when the sign was posted. This is not just my perception - several people that I showed the house to prior to the sign SAID that they were concerned about leasing a house that was about the be sold or put on the market. Statistics support the dropping off and timing of the rental market. It is similar to home sales.

Because houses are not moving many are taken off the market and are being rented until Spring when they expect the market to improve in this area.

then it would draw interest to yours. Maybe you ought to send them a couple bucks.

I do not understand your comment about sending a couple of bucks, but 'then is would draw interest to yours' is precisely the advantage of this home that was lost! It is now indistiguishable from all of the others that were for sale and then taken off the market. The rental window is now almost gone and this sign was posted during a critical marketing period taking away one of the biggest advantages that the property had. I cannot now reach those indiviuduals who believe that the house will be sold as soon as the lease is up.

4 - While leases end and terms can be renegotiated or the rent go month to month, the tenant has more control over when to move rather than moving at the convenience of the landlord. A sale would almost certainly result in a move in a relatively short period of time. Many people move to the island specifically for the schools and do not want to worry that they will be changing school districts because they cannot find another home at the end of the lease. I cannot reach every person in Seattle/Bellevue individually who saw the sign.

 

[seniorjudge]

...
how much in loss can you prove, to the courts, the sign caused?
...

Please answer this question.

Thank you.

 

[>Charlotte<]

I know that accidents happen, that is why we carry liability insurance on our vehicles. However, if we cause an accident, we are responsible and pay for repairs and any damage caused, likewise, drivers of our vehicles that cause an accident create a liability for the owner of the vehicle. Why would this be any different?

Because when you cause a vehicle accident there is actual, provable damage--which is the test of your claim. What actual monetary damages have you suffered? Can you demonstrate that the house would, in fact, have been rented by now if the sign had not been misplaced, or can you only guess that someone "might" have driven by who "might" have rented the house if it weren't for the "For Sale" sign?

 

[pdw8000]

Thank you,

Total loss would be the difference between when I am finally able to lease the house and any reduction in lease price and leasing the house September 1st adjusted for any price reductions. For example February 2009 - September 2008 (5 months) = 2600 x 5 = $13,000 plus any reduction in lease amount for the term of the lease - $2600-2400=200x12 = 2400 total would equal $15,400 (this is just an example - I pray that it is not vacant anywhere near this length of time. I would also say that the lease amount that I was asking was on the lower end of the market price for a 4 bedroom house on MI many are well over $3,000+++ per month. I just wanted it leased.

Both previous tenants moved in within 1-2 weeks after viewing the house. Prime time for renting would be during August with the house immediately available. The house was available for $2600/mo at the time, I have since lowered the price to $2400.

I know that the law deals with facts. How do you prove loss or harm when the response is no response? It was like a switch flipping - suddenly not one call for days on end - I could never have guessed that the house would be posted for sale. How do you anticipate something like that? I am frequently at the house and it was not left unattended for an extended period of time.

After the sign was removed, I now receive just a trickle of calls, maybe a couple a week versus a couple per day. Even after the call, the realtors left the sign another full day.

Almost as much of a concern as the lease payments, I do not like having the property vacant.

Honestly, I do not want to sue anyone - I just want the place leased and am at my wits end as to how to overcome the perception that it is for sale like so many of the others on the island at the moment. MI has a lot of parks that people visit (this is close to one of them) and bicyclists that train (hundreds per day) that ride by every day that see the sign and respond.

I effectively lost two weekends when visitors to the island arrange to see the house and they were critical weekends for anyone planning to give notice and move to the island for the school year.

Thanks.

 

[las365]

Your problem is that you have the burden of proof to prove that the misplaced "For Sale" sign is the proximate cause of the failure to secure a tenant. I don't see how you can do that. What you have is speculation and some circumstantial evidence, and that is not enough, in my opinion.

Prior to the sign I received 2-3 calls per day.

For instance, you were receiving calls and yet didn't rent the proerty to any of the callers. This works against your theory that the sole reason you were unable to rent the house is because of the "For Sale" sign.

 

[pdw8000]

Hi,

I do not understand post number 7 - it was not my intention to offend anyone. I am not an attorney and do not know specific language for my question.

Sorry if I offended.

 

[pdw8000]

Hi,

I do not know how to work the quotes but to answer LAS 365. Calls generate showings that help people determine whether or not the property will work for them. How many stairs, size of the kitchen, details of the baths, bedrooms, layout etc.

There has been one showing since the sign was posted. They were trying to decide whether to lease or buy a property. Fewer calls result in fewer showings which reduce the opportunities to lease. No showings, no lease.

Thanks.

 

[PghREA]

Hi,

I do not understand post number 7 - it was not my intention to offend anyone. I am not an attorney and do not know specific language for my question.

Sorry if I offended.

Senior Judge and Justalayman are asking you - What proof can you show the court that the for sale sign in your yard caused you to lose potential renters.

Hint: A reduction in the number of calls asking about renting the property is not proof.

 

[pdw8000]

To CLT747 - that makes sense. It is more difficult to prove an intangible like loss of sales/lease but a drop in response that would result in a lease is observable in the phone records. Without calls there is no opportunity for a showing that would lead to a lease.

The For Sale sign was posted more prominently than the For Rent sign (in front of MY sign) with obvious contact information for the realtor that totally eclipsed the contact information in the rental sign.

To Seniorjudge - I provided an example, but it would not be quantifiable until after a tenant was found.

Thanks.

 

[pdw8000]

To PghREA - Thank you - my timing is off on the responses. I provided an example but final numbers would not be available until leased.

I was referring to the quote in the message. It was not my intention to offend anyone. I am not a judge so perhaps it was not meant for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by private_person3
As a Judge, I would expect you to have a better mastery of the language or at leas the better sense not to put words in someones mouth!!!


This is the only property that I deal with and have not encountered anything like this situation. It sounds as though everything comes down to money not necessarily right or wrong. Unfortunate. Someone else negligently creates a problem and the one harmed appears to have little recourse. I am not looking to profit from this, just get the place rented; since they took away opportunity, they should replace it.

How could it possibly be argued that the sign did NOT result in lost opportunites to rent? It is a bit sureal. You would have to see the pictures to really appreciate the impact of their sign.