parking tick at farmers market

[homerj]

What is the name of your state? CA

At 7:30am on Sunday, I parked on 200 block C Ave to attend the weekly farmers market.. The farmers market barriers were already up and located in the intersection of C Ave and First St, about 20 feet in front of my car. When we came back to the car, I noticed it was ticketed and the barriers had been moved 100 or see feet behind my car (about half way to Second). I then noticed the permanent no parking signs for Sundays between 7am and 3pm for the farmers market. They are placed the length of C Ave between 1st and 2nd streets. There were about a dozen other cars in violation between 1st and 2nd, though outside the barriers. None of them were cited..

I walked to the police station and asked to speak with an officer to explain the moving barriers. I spoke with officer X (not the citing officer). He said he would not dismiss the ticket because I was in violation of the no parking signs. He did agree to come to the scene and ask the vendors to let me get my car out, which had gotten boxed in by vendor tables.

At the scene, I showed officer X where the barriers were at 7:30am. He said the barriers can be moved all the way to 2nd street as vendor turnout dictates. I pointed out the dozen other cars parked in violation of the same infraction as me. He agreed that they were in violation. I asked him why the other cars were not ticketed. His reply was something to the effect that they were parked outside the barriers. So was mine when I parked! I asked that my ticket be dismissed, or the others be ticketed. He declined both.

In the course of conversation, officer X said the barriers carry no legal enforcement. The fixed signs are the law. He acknowledged all the cars in question, including vendor vehicles were in violation of the law. Again he refused to cite any of them.

Seeing how the police declined to cite the 12 or so cars outside the barriers though in clear violation, I can only assume that the barrier location does indeed dictate who gets cited and who does not, and the fixed signs are meaningless.

What are my odds of beating this?

[BelizeBreeze]

Originally Posted by homerj

What is the name of your state? CA

At 7:30am on Sunday, I parked on 200 block C Ave to attend the weekly farmers market.. The farmers market barriers were already up and located in the intersection of C Ave and First St, about 20 feet in front of my car. When we came back to the car, I noticed it was ticketed and the barriers had been moved 100 or see feet behind my car (about half way to Second). I then noticed the permanent no parking signs for Sundays between 7am and 3pm for the farmers market. They are placed the length of C Ave between 1st and 2nd streets. There were about a dozen other cars in violation between 1st and 2nd, though outside the barriers. None of them were cited..

I walked to the police station and asked to speak with an officer to explain the moving barriers. I spoke with officer X (not the citing officer). He said he would not dismiss the ticket because I was in violation of the no parking signs. He did agree to come to the scene and ask the vendors to let me get my car out, which had gotten boxed in by vendor tables.

At the scene, I showed officer X where the barriers were at 7:30am. He said the barriers can be moved all the way to 2nd street as vendor turnout dictates. I pointed out the dozen other cars parked in violation of the same infraction as me. He agreed that they were in violation. I asked him why the other cars were not ticketed. His reply was something to the effect that they were parked outside the barriers. So was mine when I parked! I asked that my ticket be dismissed, or the others be ticketed. He declined both.

In the course of conversation, officer X said the barriers carry no legal enforcement. The fixed signs are the law. He acknowledged all the cars in question, including vendor vehicles were in violation of the law. Again he refused to cite any of them.

Seeing how the police declined to cite the 12 or so cars outside the barriers though in clear violation, I can only assume that the barrier location does indeed dictate who gets cited and who does not, and the fixed signs are meaningless.

What are my odds of beating this?

Little to none. 12 other cars not being cited has no effect on the fact that you ARE guilty. And the officer is correct, the banners carry no legal enforcement.

[JETX]

Agreed. The signs are the ONLY relevant issue here and you admit to being in violation.
Pay the fine.

[CdwJava]

Ditto the previous replies.

The signs are controlling. The fact that others were not cited is not a defense.

You may appeal the citation through the procedures contained on the citation.

- Carl

[homerj]

Everyove, thanks for responding.

What if I ask for a hearing with a judge? The traffice sargent already upheld the citation. (funny, to him the law is black and white, while the patrol officer said it's the spirit, not the letter of the law that counts). Which is it? the spirit of the law? or the letter of the law? or more likely whatever suits them?

Here is my reasoning:
- The fixed signs are the law and that is what I was ticketed for.

- The police BLATANTLY and ACTIVELY DISREGARD these signs and enforce the code only if the car is inside the farmers maket barriers.

- In REALITY the BARRIERS have become enforcible law, not the signs (while the police admitted the barriers carry no legal weight!).

- The barriers are subject to placement and relocation by whom? (the police could not answer this).

So what about justice for ALL and equal protection under the law? As mentioned before there were 12 other cars violating the same code, the police were on scene, witnessed them, admitted they were in violation and refused to cite any of them. If the police repeatadly refuse to enforce the code, I question code's validity.

[JETX]

Originally Posted by homerj

What if I ask for a hearing with a judge?

Go ahead.

Here is my reasoning:
- The fixed signs are the law and that is what I was ticketed for.

Okay.

The police BLATANTLY and ACTIVELY DISREGARD these signs and enforce the code only if the car is inside the farmers maket barriers.

Not relevant.

In REALITY the BARRIERS have become enforcible law, not the signs (while the police admitted the barriers carry no legal weight!).

Not true. The signs are STILL the legal 'barrier'.... or any barrier that the officers decide.

The barriers are subject to placement and relocation by whom? (the police could not answer this).

Subject to placement by AUTHORIZED parties. Police, property owner, etc.


[qutoe]So what about justice for ALL and equal protection under the law? As mentioned before there were 12 other cars violating the same code, the police were on scene, witnessed them, admitted they were in violation and refused to cite any of them. If the police repeatadly refuse to enforce the code, I question code's validity.[/quote]
Then go to court. Don't argue your points here as you don't have any. As is often said..... "Tell it to the Judge".

[homerj]

JETX,

thanks for the input. Bye the way.....

The police force's job is to enforce**************.
A) the spirit of the law.
B) the letter of the law.
C) whatever suits them.

[CdwJava]

Originally Posted by homerj

What if I ask for a hearing with a judge? The traffice sargent already upheld the citation.

The "traffic sergeant" upheld the cite? Where is this that the police are the reviewing agency for traffic cites? Usually it is a city bureucrat of some kind that hears parking appeals. But, I suppose it COULD be the traffic sergeant ... I just haven't heard of such a thing.

Yes, you CAN go before a judge. But if you lose, you might also be subject to court fees as well as the original fine.

(funny, to him the law is black and white, while the patrol officer said it's the spirit, not the letter of the law that counts). Which is it? the spirit of the law? or the letter of the law? or more likely whatever suits them?

In CA it is the SPIRIT of the law that we are usually expected to enforce. However, this does not preclude an officer from using discretion to enforce even the letter of the law ... or, to not enforce the law in some instances.

Unless you were singled out because of one of a number of protected classes, the officer's decision to cite your vehicle and not the others was a lawful use of discretion. It might not be "fair", but it's legal.

PC 4 (regarding the CA Penal Code) states: "The rule of the common law, that penal statutes are to be strictly construed, has no application to this Code. All its provisions are to be construed according to the fair import of their terms, with a view to effect its objects and to promote justice."

I presume there is a similar statement in the Vehicle Code though I do not know of it's location off hand.

Have you called and asked to speak to someone in authority at the agency about this? It could be that the Chief (or his captains and/or lieutenants) are not aware of the problem of the moving signs ... or, perhaps there is more to the tale.

In any case, if you wish to complain you will have to do it at the PD.

As for the rest, I defer to JETX's response.

- Carl

[garrula lingua]

OP: so if 3 other cars are speeding (and many more are not) I can't be cited unless those three are ? HUH??

The only relevant issue is whether you were in vio of the law & you were.

Did you try to get out of everything you did as a kid by finking on everyone ?

Are you angry caz you got a ticket, or, caz you couldn't drag others into the same unhappy circunstances as you.

[homerj]

UPDATE: I recently had my chance to "tell it to the judge".

The judge was intrigued by the case said he would meet me halfway.....

* the ticket stands - technically, I'm guilty

* the fine is dismissed/suspended, as the judge was "concerned" about the PD's practice of "selective enforcement".
Based on evidence that:
+ what triggered the citation was the farmers market barricade
+ the police admittedly IGNORE offenders on the same block if they are outside the barricade

* the judge recommended to the PD that they, and the farmer's market "tidy up their procedures"


I'm satisfied in the outcome and that the issue was brought to a high enough level where I can expect that in the future the law will be enforced equally, and that the barricades won't creep down the street over the course of the morning.

Belize said - "12 other cars not being cited has no effect on the fact that you ARE guilty".. .update - the other cars not being cited did have some effect.

JetX said - "The signs are the ONLY relevant issue here and you admit to being in violation. Pay the fine" .....update - not so my friend, my argument of selective enforcement was deemed relevant enough. Step back, take a breath and look at the big picture, it's not always black and white.

Carl - thanks for the input, and being subjective.

Garrula - thanks for your 2 cents. If wanted input from a third grader, I would have asked my nephew. I hope you are not employed in law enforcement. And please refrain from further input. As I told the judge - I would not expect the police to ticket every speeder, but when an officer is standing in the middle of the street surrounded by illegally parked cars and says he will not ticket them while I got ticketed 75 feet down the street (same block, same parking rules, same signs), then I have a problem.

[CdwJava]

Thanks for the reply of the outcome. I'm not really surprised at the judge's decision given the circumstances.

- Carl