Street Sweeping?

[NatalieCallista]

What is the name of your state? California

I am a teacher for very ill students and one day I stopped by a student's house to drop off some homework. I found myself "stuck" behind the street sweeper and followed it until it passed the house I was to visit. I rummaged around in my car for a minute and waved to the sweeper on his way the other direction. I was in my student's home for 5 minutes (I have verification with the call logs of my cell phone.) When I came out I had been ticketed by an officer (who was nowhere to be seen). The time on the ticket was 1:15 and it was 3:10pm. The neighbor of the student had a ticket for 5 minutes after mine, 1:20 but the officer wasn't in sight.

I drove up and down the street trying to find the officer and found that each ticket on each car had a difference of 3-7 minutes. (obviously impossible since the officer was nowhere to be seen.) I immediately called the Sheriff's office and spoke to the officer's supervisor who agreed that something was amiss. He then asked where I was at 1:15pm and I was able to prove with a receipt that I was at a completely different location (15 minutes away from the location on the ticket.) Because of my job I have to keep a time and mileage log for payment and auditing purposes (I work for the school district)

I contested the ticket and the response I got was that my argument did not invalidate the ticket. My car being in a completely different physical location isn't a defense?

My question is:
Should I fight the ticket in person, in writing, or over the phone. I included a photocopy of the receipt, directions between the two locations and a very detailed letter. Is it commonplace for them to deny all claims in the first place? Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.What is the name of your state?

[justalayman]

Through that entire post, I could not find where you posted the parking restrictions for the location you recieved the ticket.

and they would be....,,,,,,...?

[NatalieCallista]

Thursdays
12pm to 3pm

I have a feeling the officer wrote the time in to make up for the fact that the street sweeper was late. Saw that happen last week at another student's house. The street sweeper there came by 20 minutes after sweeping time was over, and 10 minutes after I arrived. I ran out and showed the officer the time on my cell phone and pointed to the 4 other cars she had just given a ticket to and pointed out that they weren't in violation since the time was over. She didn't give me a ticket, but I am not sure what she did about the other cars. This is the first ticket I have gotten, moving or otherwise. I am a pretty big stickler for rules, hence why I am wondering.

[justalayman]

thanks.

I do not know the preffered method. I did send a PM to a California police officer that will more than likely know the best way to approach this. His screen name is cdwjava.

If he responds, he can help you more than just about anybody else that posts on this forum.

[NatalieCallista]

Thank you kindly ::blush::

[CdwJava]

Originally Posted by NatalieCallista

My question is:
Should I fight the ticket in person, in writing, or over the phone. I included a photocopy of the receipt, directions between the two locations and a very detailed letter. Is it commonplace for them to deny all claims in the first place? Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.What is the name of your state?

First, WHY you were there will not generally be relevant to the dispute. The key issue is whether or not you were parked where prohibited at the time in question.

Second, fighting in person would be the preferred method.

Also, was this person a Deputy or was this a parking enforcement officer? What city or county was this in? And what was the code section on the citation?

When you say you "contested" the ticket, what exactly did you do? Did you just call and complain? Or, did you follow the procedure on the citation or as provided by the county or city?

If you have already contested the ticket, look into the appeals process for citations and see where that takes you. Ultimately, if all local bureaucratic options have been exhausted, then you can take the matter to a court. Unfortunately, you might incur an additional expense at court.

There are two issues I see:

(1) You CLAIM you were out at 3:10 and you had only been inside for 5 minutes. Your phone log proves nothing to establish this claim. I can make a call from my house on my cell phone and still be at the office. The call record only proves you made a call.

(2) The issuing officer's two-hour pre-timing of the citation is extremely disturbing to me. I would consider contacting anyone else who received citations the same day or witnessed the event, and having all of you join in a personnel complaint against the officer. I can tell you right now that if one of my officers did that he or she would be unemployed on a sustained complaint.

However, the local jurisdiction can still make an argument that while the time was in error (by intent or an allegedly "honest" mistake), even your accounting of the times places you right on the cusp of the time. To me this would be a bad argument because they would be relying on the argument of an officer with a very serious credibility problem if you provided witnesses to the citation's time of issue.

Ultimately, I would think that if you raise a stink, they will back down. This looks bad for their people and they won't want that. What you have to decide is whether the effort to appeal and maybe take it to a court is worth the time.

- Carl

[NatalieCallista]

The issuing officer was a Sheriff's Deputy for the Orange County Sheriff. I first contacted the department regarding the officer and contested the ticket via mail the next day using the method printed on the ticket. The violation listed is OCCO 6-4-603D :Street Sweeping

The superior officer seemed very upset at the time and when he called me back for further information he had the deputy sitting in front of him and had his logbook open.

I am planning on requesting an In-Person hearing regarding this matter. I had made copies of everything relating to that day (although my infant chewed on the receipt from the store that day, the important things, like store number, time, date, etc are still visible) What exactly should I bring with me as evidence? A good friend of mine used to be an OC Sheriff and told me (when I called very upset) that sometimes the guy that gets stuck on Parking enforcement in the unincorporated areas make up times on tickets to make it look like they were being productive. I am a little worried about questioning the officer's integrity at a hearing because quite honestly I am afraid of the backlash that it might create for me and my family.

My student's mother received a ticket the same day (timed 5 minutes after mine) but she did not to contest it because her car was parked there all day, thus, no matter what time was stated on the ticket, she was in the wrong.

What should my argument to the court be? I didn't violate the spirit of the law, and the officer appears to be lacking in the credibility department? I am an avid supported of the police force and so I am really struggling with the apparent dishonesty of this individual. Any further assistance would be wholeheartedly welcomed.

[CdwJava]

I would go for a personnel complaint against the deputy. Personally, making up these times is inexcusable - especially if the person is a deputy. It is an example of dishonesty and makes them wholly unsuitable for the job.

The Orange County Sheriff's Department is not the backwoods of Tennessee. There is not a great chance that anyone will take retaliation on you or your family for reporting this.

The issues are still the same as I previously posted - an argument can be made that by your own admission you COULD have been in violation of the section even though the officer falsified the times ... like I said, this is not an argument I would want to make if I were representing the agency.

If you go to court your argument should probably be as you previously stated: You were not present at the location at the time the citation was allegedly issued, and you arrived AFTER 3:00 PM and returned to find a parking citation issued with the earlier time. Let the court draw its own conclusions.

I can't find the procedures for appealing a parking citation yet, but I am sure you can call and ask. You may not have to take it to court if you go further ... perhaps take the issue to a Watch Commander at the station and explain that you do not wish to get the officer in trouble but would like to see your citation dismissed and see that the officer receives counseling or some discipline so this does not happen again. (As i said, I would prefer a formal personnel complaint, but if you just want to put this behind you, this is an informal method that might accomplish both.)

- Carl

[wirry1422]

Well this post certainly raises some issues more serious than a parking citation. The first thing that should be remembered is that the sole fact that the times on the ticket were in error in the extreme only proves that the deputy wrote the wrong times on the tickets. It doesn't prove or show in any way that the reason the tickets were timed incorrectly is purposeful falsification of the citations. In other words, there is no way to show why the tickets were timed incorrectly, only that they were. This is important in deciding whether or not to file a personnel complaint. I don't know what the California codes and procedures manuals call for in terms of probable cause in internal affairs disciplinary issues are. But without further investigation by the cammanding officer, no action would or could likely be taken on the sole basis of the evidence provided thus far.

"You may not have to take it to court if you go further ... perhaps take the issue to a Watch Commander at the station and explain that you do not wish to get the officer in trouble but would like to see your citation dismissed and see that the officer receives counseling or some discipline so this does not happen again. (As i said, I would prefer a formal personnel complaint, but if you just want to put this behind you, this is an informal method that might accomplish both.)"

I was suprised to see you offer that as advice. Taking that course of action could sound to many a commanding officer as being suspiciously close to bribery: "let this drop and I won't make trouble for your man" is what it would sound like to the officer not privy to this disscussion. And that may have consequences beyond what you believe for this woman and her family, who must live and work within OC's jurisdiction. Despite the size of the department, word travels fast.

[CdwJava]

Originally Posted by wirry1422

I was suprised to see you offer that as advice. Taking that course of action could sound to many a commanding officer as being suspiciously close to bribery: "let this drop and I won't make trouble for your man" is what it would sound like to the officer not privy to this disscussion. And that may have consequences beyond what you believe for this woman and her family, who must live and work within OC's jurisdiction. Despite the size of the department, word travels fast.

As I said, I would go for the jugular. However, if you have a complainant that does not wish to walk the last mile for whatever reason, you may not have a sustainable complaint. Some agencies or supervisors might be willing to rehabilitate an otherwise good officer who might have done a stupid thing based on bad counsel from fellow officers. A complant for intentionalyl and knowingly falsifying a citation is a potentially career-ending allegation if sustained as it becomes a "Brady" issue and can be discoverable to the defense in matters where the veracity of the officer comes into question.

If it were me, I would likely seek to terminate. But, not every agency is willing to go that far in every situation.

As for the Orange County Sheriff's Department, this is not a third world outfit. I know the Sheriff, and I know many of the officers and supervisors there. IF someone took it upon themselves to try and extract a toll from the complainant or his family (doubtful unless they are already known to the agency for other issues ... that is a large county) there WOULD be repercussions for those officers.

- Carl

[CdwJava]

Originally Posted by wirry1422

I don't know what the California codes and procedures manuals call for in terms of probable cause in internal affairs disciplinary issues are.

There are not any such codes. An agency can undertake an internal investigation for a host of reasons. An allegation of falsifying a citation is certainly among them.

But without further investigation by the cammanding officer, no action would or could likely be taken on the sole basis of the evidence provided thus far.

That's not entirely correct. Most agencies have an internal affairs investigation process, and by law in CA they must take a complaint. Even if a Watch Commander of field supervisor opts to sweep it away, a superior officer or someone in Internal Affairs COULD take it on anyway. It really depends on the agency's policy and procedure for handling complaints.

In my agency if a supervisor refuses to act on a complaint, the person can go over his head up to the Chief if need be.

With the information provided thus far, if I chose to look into it, I could almost certainly show beyond a reasonable doubt that the officer was NOT in the neighborhood at the time of the alleged citations. Whether the deputy's station commander or Internal Affairs would spend any time with it is another matter. But, if they chose to, they should be able to find out if this was an honest mistake or an intentional act.



- Carl

[NatalieCallista]

Wow, I didn't realize this would spark such an interesting debate.

I sent in my request to have an in-person hearing. In my youth I dated a few officers from different departments, but it is unlikely that any of them would recognize me now. The answer I was trying to glean is whether when an individual contests a parking ticket whether or not they deny the request automatically. I know at the end of the day what they want is the money. And I realize that by fighting this I am going to end up costing my fellow taxpayers more in administrative costs than the ticket is worth.

However, I am deeply troubled by the officer's possible integrity issue. One bad apple ruins the pie. I admire and respect the law enforcement profession and would hate to see one officer with questionable ethics drag an entire department down. If I were a betting woman (oddly, I have never gambled before) I would guess that the officer prefilled in the citations and went by writing down license plate information and sticking on tickets. I cannot figure any other way single man could write out 10 tickets in the span of 5 minutes and then leave the area.

At the end of the day, I am willing to pay the money. Not because I think I deserved the ticket, but because I am going to cost fellow taxpayers money and I don't think that is right. Should I ask at the hearing for information regarding filing a complaint against the officer? I don't want to ruin his livelihood, but I do want him to recognize that career advancement and security is contingent upon honesty.

Thank you so much for all of your thoughtful responses.

[CdwJava]

Originally Posted by NatalieCallista

At the end of the day, I am willing to pay the money. Not because I think I deserved the ticket, but because I am going to cost fellow taxpayers money and I don't think that is right.

What is not right is the officer falsifying the citation. You MAY have deserved the parking cite (if you were there after 3 PM) , but he should not have falsified the document under any circumstance.

Should I ask at the hearing for information regarding filing a complaint against the officer?

The parking hearing will likely be heard by bureaucrats and not by Sheriff's Department supervisors or managers. However, if it is, you can always ask about it there or go to the front desk and request a complaint form or ask to speak to a watch commander.

I don't want to ruin his livelihood, but I do want him to recognize that career advancement and security is contingent upon honesty.

I don't want a dishonest cop working in the job. HE made a decision that could cost him his career - not you. Today it's fudging times on parking cites so he can look busy ... next month he could be fudging affidavits for search warrants or exaggerating probable cause for an arrest.

I am a police officer and a supervisor/manager, and *I* would want to know about this kind of thing from one of MY officers!


- Carl
Thank you so much for all of your thoughtful responses.[/quote]

[NatalieCallista]

Oh, I mentioned above that the sign said no parking between 12pm and 3pm. I didn't arrive until around 3:10pm... I meant that I didn't violate the spirit of the law because I didn't impede his route despite the fact that it was after his designated time. The purpose of the sign, besides raking in quite a few pennies to keep our government working, is to allow the street sweeper unobstructed access to the gutters.

That's all I meant.

And thank you for giving me a different perspective on the issue. I will try not to feel guilty about bringing this to his department head's attention. I might, however, wait until after Christmas to do anything. I wouldn't want to ruin his family's Christmas if the department did decide to take action.

[CdwJava]

Originally Posted by NatalieCallista

Oh, I mentioned above that the sign said no parking between 12pm and 3pm. I didn't arrive until around 3:10pm

That's based upon YOUR estimation. It may or may not have been the case. In any event, the actual time is arguable. However, there is a big difference between 3-something and 1-something.

And thank you for giving me a different perspective on the issue. I will try not to feel guilty about bringing this to his department head's attention. I might, however, wait until after Christmas to do anything. I wouldn't want to ruin his family's Christmas if the department did decide to take action.

Any action would no toccur until long after Christmas. This sort of thing does not happen quickly.

Plus, you diminish the argument if you delay. It will likely be assumed that you got ticked when you had to pay the fine so you decided to complain. If you have a valid complaint the time to make it is now. If you delay, you diminish your believability.

Trust me on this - I do internal affairs investigations. I woul dbe very wary of someone that waited more than a month to make a complaint. Usually they do that when they get a notice for a fine or court.

- Carl